Love is (sometimes) a Battlefield.
When A and I first started living together, we had a constant debate about whether or not we would wear shoes in the house. My feet were cold when I walked on our uninsulated San Francisco hardwood floors. I wanted to wear shoes. This made A really agitated. “You just can’t wear shoes in the house!” he kept saying. He offered many, many reasons why I shouldn’t wear shoes, but none of them seemed to me like they should trump my cold feet.
Finally, it occured to me that we had found a place where our individual cultures were colliding (in retrospect it seems really obvious, but then I was cemented in my argument and didn’t want to lose.) The majority of the time, my relationship with A is just a normal boy-girl relationship with ups and downs like everyone else, but sometimes we still have to figure out how to negotiate the fact that A and I come from very different cultures.
I know there are other people in inter-racial relationships that claim that culture isn’t an issue for them, but for us, that just isn’t the case.
How did we resolve the shoe issue? I started leaving my shoes by the door and A bought me a pair of toasty slippers. We found a compromise that addressed both of our needs and made everyone happy. We still don’t wear shoes in the house, seven years later.
I was talking to A about the responses to my two posts about educating darling M. I told him that the sentiment I kept getting was that we (or more accurately HE) should worry more about M’s immediate happiness/stress level or maybe that we shouldn’t pressure her to achieve academically so she would feel better about herself.
“Obviously those people aren’t Chinese” he said.
“No, most of the Asians and the people married to Asians seemed to get where you were coming from, even if they didn’t completely agree.” I said.
A and I know that education is an area where our cultural beliefs collide. Can I just say, “A, get over it! We are in America! Let M slack her way through school if she wants!”
No, I can’t say that.
Why not? Because concern about M’s achievement is how he demonstrates his concern for her and her future. Making M do her homework and and pushing her to achieve is the best way A knows to make sure that M will be happy, confident and have options in the future. To him, school is about learning how to claw your way to the top of the heap. When A thinks about the things that he is proud of, his academic achievements (National Merit Scholar, full ride scholarship, graduating from one of the top law schools in the country, etc.) make him feel like a successful, worthy person. Why shouldn’t he feel proud of those things? He worked damn hard for them. The self-discipline he learned in school helped him complete his life dream of biking across the US from coast to coast.
To quote A:
Why does everyone assume that learning discipline is a negative thing? If we let M do what she wants, she would eat candy all the time. We don’t do that because we are her parents and we are concerned about more than her immediate happiness, we are concerned with her future and her health. Once she learns to eat vegatables, she figures out that she likes them or maybe that she should just eat them because they are good for her even if they are a little unpleasant.
By making sure she does her schoolwork work and does it correctly, I am being a good parent. I am teaching her self-discipline. If she learns how to jump through the hoops at school, she will figure out how to negotiate her way through all the bullshit the world will throw at her. You need self-discipline if you are going to achieve anything. It will be a lot easier for her to learn it if I help her rather than just hoping she figures it out eventually on her own.
Asking him to let M just be mediocre and coast her way through school without his guidance is the same thing as asking him to stop expressing his love for her.
I won’t sit here swimming in my white privilege, telling him that the way his people demonstrate parental affection is wrong. I won’t tell him that the Chinese cultural emphasis on academic achievement is a mistake.
Yes, it will take effort for A and I to find a comfortable balance when it comes to education. Yes, there will be many funny and annoying arguments along the way. In the end, though, I know it will be OK because we both love M and want the best for her.
October 9th, 2006 at 2:09 am
I think the complications for my husband and I arise when we realize that we have different definitions of how to achieve in school. Or what achievement looks like. I want to believe there’s a way to reward hard work, discipline, and striving for excellence (because I was mostly rewarded for “being smart,” and never really felt like that quality belonged to me) without doing the whole “you got a 97, why didn’t you get a 100?” thing, because that was also a big part of my education dynamic, and it was misery-making. I don’t feel any special accomplishment for having gotten the 100 the next time.
My husband just thinks the kids should memorize every possible answer and get the 100s and that’s the end of that. No wonder he graduated ahead of me at college.
All of which has absolutely nothing to do with your particular family dynamic, in terms of cultural difference. LOL.
October 9th, 2006 at 2:23 am
I know all about the shoes, but I hate shoes inside too, and yes slippers for the family and guests are in a basket by the door!
One thing that I have as a culture clash with my Chinese husband is the fact that for some reason it seems a lot of our Chinese friends and family (born in China) have such a lack of tact! It’s nothing to tell your friend how fat you think she is getting! It’s more than that, but this one erks me the most!
I just hope that he can hold his tongue and not mention weight to our kids, it ios really hard growingupwith all the added pressure from the media and then to add parents and family! That’s lke asking for an eating disorder!
October 9th, 2006 at 2:26 am
It’s interesting because it sounds like your husband and mine followed similar paths, but with different results. My husband felt pressured to do well in school and become a lawyer and now he *hates* it. We have agreed that we aren’t going to pressure our daughter that way. Yes, I want her to do well in school, but I’m not going to freak out if she gets a B.
October 9th, 2006 at 2:44 am
I agree entirely with A that learning self-discipline is incredibly valuable. And I think you raised an important point in the discussion that started the first of these education posts: what if a child’s ultimate potential does not equal perfect academic achievement? Finding the point where these lines of thought intersect is tough. I wonder how I will handle this with my own girl. I worked hard in highschool (A’s, valedictorian, blah, blah, blah) and applied the same diligence with basically the same results in college. My example of potential and hard work colliding with an undesirable outcome was the first year of college-level calculus. I did fine in calculus in high school but hit the wall with a resounding splat in the college class. I worked HARD and ended up with a C+, and that was only because my homework marks were high (a good friend for whom math came more easily and I worked on assignments together throughout the course). I studied for 30+ hours for the final…and got a D. In short, I worked harder for that class than any other throughout college, and received the lowest grade I ever earned. My potential was just no higher in that specific area of study. In a way this was disappointing: all that work and I still couldn’t achieve at the level I wanted. But it also taught me to loosen up a bit. I hope I can remember this when it comes to my hopes/expectations for my own child.
You’re right, of course: ultimately you and A both have M’s best interest and incredible love for her at heart, so any conflicts will work out.
October 9th, 2006 at 5:07 am
It’s an interesting debate. I think if you find a middle ground you will end up with an incredibly bright and well prepared child - for all of life’s tasks whether social or work related. Good luck!
October 9th, 2006 at 10:02 am
This is one of the best posts I’ve read in a while… probably cause I’m in an inter-racial relationship and totally see where you and A are having this debate… I have one similar with my husband… I totally agree with A. and I command you for being open to his perspective and respectful of it… you write wonderfully…
October 9th, 2006 at 1:58 pm
Before my (Chinese) boyfriend’s parents ever met me, his mom went out and bought me a pair of slippers in preparation for my visit!
In regards to the academic situation, our roles are reversed - I am the over-achiever and he struggles to maintain a B+ average. But I read him your post about M’s education, and he indicated that he also took A’s point of view. I think it is because he sees how much easier finding a job, etc. is if you have all A’s. And interestingly, I can see myself trying to stop him if he pushed our (hypothetical) kids too hard academically.
October 9th, 2006 at 2:32 pm
I am German and believe me, I know about discipline. I also think that learning is good. I just don’t think that you can/need to learn everything in school.
My son just turned 4 and he already know how the digestive system works because we talked about it and we looked at books. In the moment he sits next to me and plays computer games and he is discplined enough to focus for 20 minutes and work his way through the game even if he can’t read most of the instructions (sorry about the rambling, but A’s comment about edcucation really got me!).
About living with somebody from a different culture: I still close all the doors, especially the one of the bathroom behind me because it is very impolite to leave them open in German society and my husband still asked if I am pissed at him!
… but being married to another culture makes it also sooo much for fun!
October 9th, 2006 at 2:36 pm
[...] American Family » Love is sometimes a Battlefield. [...]
October 9th, 2006 at 4:48 pm
I only wish I had grown up with A’s values about hard work and the importance of academic success. Being smart was important in my family but being the best was not important. M has you to give her the unconditional love and acceptance and A to push her to be the best she can be. What a great combo!
October 9th, 2006 at 5:16 pm
OMG, you absolutely CANNOT wear shoes in the house!
But slippers are the perfect alternative.
October 9th, 2006 at 5:20 pm
OK, on a more serious note: (By making sure she does her schoolwork work and does it correctly, I am being a good parent. I am teaching her self-discipline.)
Is that really SELF-discipline? Or learning to act via external discipline? This is a fascinating discussion. We have been fairly hands off re our daughters’ education. Well, SORT of hands off. Our elder has a HUGE amount of internal drive and is by nature quite competitive. We feel like we need to tell her to relax a bit. The younger has absolutely NO desire to excel or compete in academic areas (or any area). She’s very easygoing but it has been a frustration re school. I wonder what your A would do with a kid like this. She is SO much marching to her own drummer, and grades/school just don’t interest her very much. We have her seeing all manner of tutors because she is behind academically and we just want her to be AT GRADE LEVEL, not behind. But I think she is the kind of kid who would make A tear his hair out. My older daughter would be a great match for him. So much of it depends on temperament, doesn’t it?
October 9th, 2006 at 6:26 pm
I liked A’s voice in this, because he’s very clear on the contribution he’s having. He’s also — it seems — not saying that M will be a disappointment/failure/aberration should she flounder, get a C every now and again or mebbe flunk Home Ec classes….
I’d be concerned about this approach to parenting through school success if its his only contributing factor as a parent, or the only way he expresses himself, and yet, that doesn’t seem to be. Even by his own words.
We all go about things different, whether based on culture, upbringing, gender, race, status. Whatever. And for the myriads of ways to do things, a common avenue seems to be expecting things from our children. Loving them. Wanting the best. It’s a shame that there’s no full proof, one exacting methodology to discern what works best for whom in any given situation. (Yeah, you heard me, I’m asking for a damn parenting manual!)
Thanks for another thought provoking post.
October 9th, 2006 at 8:15 pm
Your post struck a chord with me. I’m not chinese and don’t have any closer connection to chinese culture other than having a couple of fairly close Chinese friends, but our household has similar issues about academic achievement. My mother was the first person in her family to go to university, and she grew up in a very deprived household. She very much used her education as a tool to get OUT of that situation, and learned from an early age to work her ass off at school if she wanted to get anywhere.
One generation later, and thanks to my mum working her ass off, my sister and I have grown up in a ridiculously over-privaliged, middle class household. My dad was much more laid back than my mum about education, not being a particularly academic person himself. I’ve inherited that attitude from him, which constantly brings me into conflict with my mother. I;ve never been hugely bothered about my academic progress at school - but mum worries like a nut case and has serious goes at me about it. It’s her way of expressing concern for my future, because she’s learned that education is the way to secure better options for a child in adulthood.
October 9th, 2006 at 8:30 pm
Have you or A seen these posts from Rice Daddies?
http://ricedaddies.blogspot.com/2006/07/duty-calls.html
http://ricedaddies.blogspot.com/2006/09/sam-wan-superquiz-answers-damn-you-sam.html
http://ricedaddies.blogspot.com/2005/09/damn-you-sam-wan-part-deux.html
October 10th, 2006 at 12:35 am
This post totally resonated with me, in a different sort of way. This White girl and her India-born husband don’t wear shoes in the house by mutual agreement - I wish I could get everyone walking through my door to do the same. When I go to other people’s homes, I take my shoes off there as well. I feel I am being disrespectful somehow treading God knows what over their floors.
Regarding education, my husband expects A LOT from our son. On the one hand, I feel sorta bad for my son knowing the high expectations that are in store for him (my husband went Ivy League on full scholarship. sigh.) However, on the other hand, my son is going to grow up with a father who will always be there for him, who is totally devoted to him, and who would walk to the ends of the earth for him. That is, as long as he gets good grades.
October 10th, 2006 at 5:31 am
cagey333, put a BIG SIGN “No shoes inside please” and a nice shoe rack next to your front door. Works for us.
October 10th, 2006 at 5:47 am
Interestingly enough it’s pretty much the same on our side yet our cultures are very similar (different hispanic backgrounds) - although it makes me uneasy I lean towards a mix of self-led and unschooling but my husband is totally uncomfortable with that. We are homeschooling this year (traveling) and he is in charge of the math and the way he handles “class” is sooooo diferent from my way…I clench my jaw and grind my teeth just listening in but he is totally vested in making sure she “gets it” and gets 100 on her test whereas I’m more of “hey…that is cool you understood the history lesson and lets see how it compares to what we’ve been seeing on our travels but don’t really care if she totally recalls it on a test” mode which drives him nuts. He sees our daughter’s education in the same light your husband sees “M’s”
BTW, I had to laugh at the lack of tact comment…that is my culture to a “t” - I went to visit a few years ago and EVERYONE (people I had not seen since I was a kid) would preface their salutations with “Oh My How fat you are/have gotten” - really nice! NOT!LOL My family and relatives don’t mince words when they talk…hard to get used to if you are not one of us!LOL
In our case is not necessarily a difference in culture but in the way we view education and success. The reason I don’t push it is because I don’t think it is hurting our daughter (he expects her do well but is a very loving daddy) and well…I’m a total underachiever and lack ambition (I did really well in school by the way!LOL) and he is focused and gets where he wants to go so maybe there is something to the way he does it.
Also…we “adopted” the no shoes inside the house many years ago but I remember the first time I walked into my friend’s house (Chinese) and everyone started taking their shoes off. I kept thinking “are my socks clean…do my shoes stink?” It took some getting used to for our hispanic families…but now even my sister in law does it in her house too.
October 10th, 2006 at 6:32 am
You know, having read your previous posts - especially the first one - and then this one, it seems to me this is actually two different debates getting treated as though they were the same debate. “Should we push M to do her best rather than letting her slack off?” is NOT the same question as “Should we insist that we will accept nothing less than a perfect score from her and, if she fails to get anything less than straight As, then that _is_ a failure and we will insist that she does it over and over again until she gets it right?”
No, I’m not Asian. But I do come from a family in which the prevailing culture was in favour of academic success, in which nothing less than high grades in every subject every time was quite good enough. So I don’t think my opinions on the subject have to do with white privilege – they have to do with having the experience of growing up with that message. And you know what? That upbringing didn’t lead to me being proud of my successes. It led to the opposite. I have never been able to feel proud of my successes, because there was always a feeling that they weren’t successes so much as me having just done what was expected, very good, and now better make sure you do the same again next time.
Oh, I don’t mean that to sound as though my mother was horrible about it – she was delighted when I brought home a high grade, and I got lots of praise along with the pressure. And I daresay some of this problem is my perfectionist personality and the way I respond to things. But there _was_ this constant feeling of having to achieve. And the result of that is that I have never really been able to look at a top grade and get that feeling of ‘Wow! I’m thrilled!’ At best it would mean relief – I’d done what was expected of me, I wouldn’t get told off or have to live with my mother being disappointed in me. At worst, it would mean a feeling of dread because I knew I wouldn’t be likely to manage such a good grade next time around and I knew that it would be expected of me. There are plenty of other things in my life that I’ve learned to be proud of along the way, but, to this day – and up to and including a first class honours degree followed by a medical degree – my academic work has never been one of them.
Does this mean that I think I should have been allowed to slack off, or that I plan to let my son do so? Hell, no. I certainly will encourage him to be the best he can be. But… I will encourage him to be the best _he_ can be, not some sort of best that I’ve dreamed up and want him to be. See the difference?
October 10th, 2006 at 2:13 pm
Culture clashes don’t just cross racial lines and I think compromises can sometimes work out better than either extreme. My parents and my wife’s parents are both white and from the same geographic area, but their philosophies don’t always match up. Her parents tend to put a lot of importance on money. They were uneasy when we announced we were pursuing an adoption at our age (late-20s) when we haven’t “established” ourselves and I think they were horrified when Jill let it slip that I might become a stay-at-home dad. My parents, who both did work they hated for years to support our family want me to do work I enjoy and are happy if Jill and I are happy.
Jill and I meet somewhere in the middle, where we’ll probably never be rich, but we’re very responsible with the money we have.
October 10th, 2006 at 8:08 pm
Sarah V. expressed above what I was going to say: in my (white) family, “parental affection” (which was strong and constant) was often expressed in the same way you say that “A’s people” express it. By telling me that a B+ was in fact worse than a D or an F, because it meant I wasn’t trying hard enough, whereas a failing grade meant I honestly didn’t understand the material. And that means that to this day, a comment less than exceptional-brilliant-outstanding is a blow, and a comment like exceptional-brilliant-outstanding is more like, meh, okay, next?
It’s probably at least partly me, because, as I said, I was never in doubt that my parents loved me and wanted the best for me. But perfection is a lot to ask of a child when the parent is always the one in the position of control.