So Mr. A and I are continuing our due diligence on the move or don’t move thing. I have learned a very valuable lesson in this quest for information:
Where we live is insanely cheap for the amenities and lifestyle we have.
Or rather, big cities are insanely expensive. Seriously.
I have been researching San Francisco, Chicago, and Washington D.C. Chicago is the only one that seems to have housing available for people who are not willing to lay down $800k-$1million dollars to live close to where the work is.
Good lord, city people, how do you do it?
Even Chicago seems insanely expensive compared to here. It looks like we could MAYBE get a decent three bedroom condo there, in a close-in suburb with good schools for about $400k. (Which is about double our current mortgage and would be difficult to manage, but better than throwing away $2,000 a month on rent.)
Do you know what $400K buys you HERE?? A McMansion, that is what – if you are willing to go out a little farther in the suburbs. A 4,000 square foot new build monstrosity with a lovely new kitchen and 47 bathrooms in nationally ranked school districts.
Do you know what $400k buys you in San Francisco? A closet. 410 square feet three feet from a highway.
It isn’t like this should be such news to me, we lived in San Francisco for about five years. But we didn’t have a kid then and I didn’t have to take neighborhood safety and schools into consideration. Back then we were quite pleased to live in a shithole as long as we had enough money left over for sushi and wine. Ahh, the good old days.
For the record, I don’t want a McMansion. My little 1800sq. foot house is looking more and more appealing, the more time I spend on Realtor.com . Especially since I started doing some long-neglected repairs in case we have to sell it.
I know there is no where I want to live in the Bay area that we can afford (which is very disappointing). I found some possibile suburbs/neighborhoods in Chicago, but there are some other drawbacks that aren’t so appealing.
Is there anywhere affordable in the DC area where a family can live close to public transit, with good schools, in a walkable neighborhood?
Because right now, Denver* is looking more and more appealing even though we know nothing about it besides the fact that its cost of living is similar to here. And there is an almost-affordable chinese immersion private school there. And it isn’t an enormous metropolitan area.
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*The list of cities that have the specific job Mr. A might be interested in are as follows: Washington DC, Los Angeles, San Francisco, New York, Philly, Boston, (All too expensive,). Miami (too hot) Atlanta (too southern), Fort Worth (texas–too conservative) , Salt Lake City (too white, too religious, too conservative), Chicago (Maybe) and Denver.
I’m mormon and I gotta tell you, *I* would not live in SLC. Very self-righteous people there and their views are extremely limited due to their cushioned lifestyle. Seriously, a lot of kids (I’d almost venture to say *MOST* kids) that come from there are absolutely stunned when they step out of Utah, because of their sheltered life.
DFW isn’t bad. Yes, it’s conservative, but there are alot more liberals than you think down here, and believe me, we cling together. The mayors of Dallas have been nothing but democrats for as long as i can remember, but the further out into smaller towns/country, the more conservative it is.
I grew up outside the DC area (~45 minutes). Montgomery County, MD or Fairfax County, VA have some of the best public schools in the nation. The suburbs are pretty safe. However, the house going rate is around 700K for a 4000 sq ft house. Also, there is a sizable Chinese community in and around the area.
We lived in the Denver/Boulder area for 6 years before moving here. If you need any information, you know where to find me.
At the time we lived there, we didn’t have kids, but I would be happy to give you ideas of good areas to live and the benefits of living in an outdoorsy area.
Nan
Colorado very conservative. You look at Quincy or Braintree — outside of Boston? Lot of Chinese, maybe not as expensive housing.
DS-L
Arlington, VA, is an expensive but affordable (for a metro area) neighborhood in the DC area with excellent schools and close to public transportation (orange line). My friend just bought a house here for less than $500k yesterday, but you do have to look hard to find such a deal. The schools are excellent, with the high schools ranked in the top 50 in US News & World Report. And the people are diverse with tons of adopted kids; our weekly playgroup has more than 10 kids around the same age (within 3 months of age from each other).
There are some great neighborhoods in Philly that are really not too expensive at all (we’ve been researching Philly for about a year now) – you can buy a beautiful house for $250k in very diverse and lovely areas. It’s a far cry cheaper than the other cities on your list!
Or you could come to NYC and live in a tent.
Have you been to the city-data.com/forum website? In our search to move to San Diego this summer, I have learned so much about the city from its residents on the forum – everything from neighborhoods to schools to taxes called “mellow roos.” I read the forum often and learn something new about SD everyday. Now, it doesn’t seem so daunting to pick up an move across the country.
We live outside DC, and we had to rent a house because our perfectly-respectable-anywhere-else income (about $80,000) qualified us to buy a closet here. Prices are coming down now, and decentsized townhouses are in the $300k range, but we can’t live in a townhouse (non-accessible), so we’re still tossing money away on rent. As epin wrote above, the area is wonderfully diverse (as long as you don’t wander into the exclusive areas out in the far suburbs, or drift out into the small towns on the fringes), but what should buy a very nice house gets you squat here. We’re counting the months until we can get out of here.
I thought the same things about Salt Lake that you did, then we had to spend a considerable amount of time there for medical stuff.
The fact that Mormons run the place makes it REALLY family friendly. The streets are laid out really smartly. And on Sunday there are ton of things that are half price or free because the Mormons won’t go. We found a ton of cultural things we wanted to do.
I agree with you that it’s likely too conservative. I’ve heard that Salt Lake proper is far less Mormon than the burbs there. And really there is no diversity.
If you are looking in the chicago area, take a look at oak park… good schools, close to the EL, relatively diverse. I’ve also heard that houses aren’t selling well so it may help with prices… And it is very walkable.
Long time lurker coming out to say that I grew up in South Jersey about 15 miles from Philly. It’s a GREAT place to live. Much more affordable than DC and the Bay area. Philly has a nice Chinatown and there’s lots of diversity all around the Philadelphia area. We live in NC and go to see family in suburban DC with some frequency. The beltway and traffic there would drive me absolutely mad, though my mom does commute from Jersey to Philly for work and it can be bad on a day with a wreck or bad weather.
I occasionally read your blog, as I am a fellow adopter! I can help a little in the Washington DC area… there is a town called Columbia in Howard County, Maryland. It is a commute of about 45 minutes to 1 1/2 hrs to DC, depending on the traffic, and has a large Asian population. It is known for its great schools… it might be a place to check out! Houses right now are from $300-400 K for a nice size, normal house!
Good luck!
I lived in Frederick County Maryland and LOVED it! This was in the early 90s and I had to drive to the metro and take the meto to DC but by now they might have metro stops in Frederick County. I really liked the area because I’m originally from WI and MN and the rolling hills and country-side reminded me of home.
I can’t say anything except that it’s too bad there aren’t any good jobs for Mr. A in Raleigh/Durham….
We live right in Boston. There’s a really nice public school near us, in Chinatown. You have to be comfortable with having your kids in a large (and I mean LARGE) public school, but it’s a pretty good program. Our neighborhood (South End) has a good public school, too– it’s a Spanish immersion program. The things with Boston are: (1) that real estate is expensive, but you can do it if you look around; (2) the school system is lottery-based, so to some extent you’re rolling the dice. Sections of Cambridge are affordable, it’s also lottery for the schools, but 9 of the 12 elemenary schools are in pretty good shape. Cambridge is so diverse, too, that you would have no problem finding a community that you like.
Also, there are more affordable suburbs, and keep in mnd that the average salaries here are higher than in other places. Email me off-line if you want more info. But I wouldn’t dismiss Boston out of hand based on $. There are a lot of benefits to living here.
I can tell you our income is nowhere NEAR what yours is but we have a home in Cambridge. If you choose to live in other sections of Boston you can get even more for your money. The Cambridge schools are generally well regarded; very diverse; and Chinese instruction in the elementary nearest me begins in K. My wife teaches in a middle/high where Chinese instruction is also mandatory.
I guess maybe I’m just used to the idea of living in a condo; if a SFH is important it’s probably a no go.
you can definitely walk here; we owned no car for years and years. I was nearly 30 before I owned a car.
it’s effing cold though.
Just to put in a plug for the Boston area, and because my husband and I are looking at buying this year so I’ve done recent research, you can buy a two-family in Arlington for ~$550. Great schools, parks, amenities, very diverse and you can take public transportation into downtown Boston in under 45 minutes or drive in 30 minutes. Rent one unit for $1200 a month and it brings your mortgage into a very affordable range. Plus, Arlington is the only town in the entire greater Boston area where property values have held during the recent downturn. And Boston feels like a small city compared to some of the others you’ve mentioned, though you’ve probably been there and know that.
I live in Dallas and while most people like to think of Texas as conservative there is a thriving liberal community both in Dallas and Ft. Worth. Ft. Worth is also amazingly cheap to live in compared to Dallas and Dallas is freaking nothing compared to San Fran, Chicago etc…
Ft. Worth is known as the more friendly of the towns but also the more “country”.
I particularly love Dallas as it’s where I was born and raised but also because the shiney people and polish is easy to spot and avoid. Look at communities near TCU in Ft. Worth or Lakewood and Lower Greenville in Dallas.
My .02. If you do decide to view this area – let me know and I can help steer you around neighborhoods.
T
You know, it seems like we’ve lived in at least half the cities you listed. Philadelphia is by the least expensive of the ones we’ve lived in (Chicago, Philadelphia, San Francisco). In fact, we fled Chicago for Philadelphia because Chi-town was so pricey for us. You might want to look at Atlanta a little more closely too–it’s not nearly as southern as it’s geographical location might suggest, and it’s tres affordable. Keep looking–there are lots of options!
Well, we’re making the reverse choice – from Seattle to Fort Worth. Fort Worth might be conservative (although it is a major metropolitan area, and you could live closer to Dallas), but it sure is cheap! We’d never be able to afford a house or a child in Seattle, but, suddenly, both those things seem possible. Just something to think about.
Well, I can’t speak to the Chinese population in Philly, and the public schools suck (but there’s a large homeschooling community and lots of charter schools) — but if you moved here, I would be your friend. lol.
Just to plug boston it really depends where the company is located. A lot places say they are in boston but are really located on the 128 tech/business circle where the housing is significantly cheaper. The prices are dropping radically but if you are willing to live a 30 mins commuter rail ride from the city the housing is closer to 300k. Quincy on the south shore is asian central with a small asian mall, lots of asian markets etc.. the lexington/burlington areas (north of boston) has a lot of well educated asians with great schools. If you want an affordable coastal area Beverly, Hamilton, wenham are all very nice with great schools not very diverse. The town (think witchy) I live in is very diverse with school choice (you get 3 choices, choose wisely and the school will be good). We live 2 blocks from the ocean in a and our neighborhood runs 300-400K. The train is 25-30 mins from the center of the city 15-30 mins drive from the 128 tech circle companies.
BTW usually 1800 square feet would be considered a huge house around here. Most people live in 100+ year old mini houses.
oh you are playing my favorite game: realestate equivalency! When ever we visit a new place, hubs & I try to compare what the value of our house would get us in that location, and what we would have to pay for a comparable house. But the minute we factor in all the free stuff we get in Canada, we stop playing and go home!
I’m a graduate student in the DC area, with gainfully-employed friends in Columbia, MD (fairly walkable, FABULOUS libraries, but no public transit to DC that I know of) and in Silver Spring, MD (on the DC metro, walkable in a shiny and citified way, but seems crazy expensive to this Midwesterner).
Honestly, if you wind up in the DC area, I wouldn’t buy a house right off unless you feel you have to. It’s not very good timing for house-buying around here, and getting to know the area really helped me figure out what areas I would be happy settling in — not always the same ones I expected when I moved here. I’ve lived briefly in the Bay area, but never had to take care of finding my own housing there, so I’m not sure how it compares.
alas, i am surprised you found anything for $400K in SF. (also, those prices don’t take into account the HOA fees, which can run between $500-$2000, depending).
in my east bay city (oakland), 1200 sq ft in a decent neighborhood will cost you about $700K. you’ll usually have to be willing to do some repairs, but it will be largely livable.
i used to live in ohio, and it costs about 2-3X as much to live out here, but i love it.
good luck!
I hate to start a blog war, and I’m so happy to see people say nice things about Boston, but no way is Arlington the only town around here that has held its values in terms of real estate. Hello…. Wellesley, Newton, Brookline, Weston, Needham? Not to mention the better neighborhoods in Boston. We bought our place only three years ago, and we stand to make a little cash when/if we sell in the spring.
Arlington has had good press recently, and it’s a nice town (we’ve looked at houses there), but c’mon now. Arlington schools are average, and the best commuting is to Cambridge. The Boston commute via public transport isn’t so great.
The other towns I mentioned have the top schools in the state– those values have not dropped very much at all– trust me, we go to open houses every weekend, trying to decide what we should do about schooling as our daughter gets older.
Hey – what’s wrong with Minneapolis?
Based on your last post, I’m wondering if you live in my area….if so, I wish you would stay!
My mom lived in Denver before she died, and D and I have “lived” there for months at a time when he went to Craig Hospital.
COL is comparable to Portland. Perhaps a tad bit more expensive. (And I imagine that PDX is a tad bit more expensive than where you live now.) My mom lived in Littleton and could get a decent suburban tract house for 500K. There was one main light rail line to the south that went to downtown and I think they were planning to develop more. I could travel pretty independently there without car. Denver is one of the countries “Meccas” for the disabled. Probably only second to Berkley. But it is also much more conservative than the west coast (though I’m sure not as bad as Salt Lake, which is such a beautiful city it is a shame it is so unliveably white conservative crazy.) There is a good sized hispanic population there, but I’m not sure about Asian/Chinese.
Oh, and it is brown there all year and no trees. But then I’m comparing it to PDX which is probably not fair. But thats what always struck me, the very brownness of it.
I promise not to hijack your blog any further, but I stand by my [realtor's] statement: Arlington is the only town where there were still bidding wars for property last year, and where property continues to sell at or above asking price, albeit only 10% above asking as opposed to the 50% of previous years. Obviously there are many good towns and good reasons for living in them. However, there is a specialness about Arlington that cannot be denied by anyone who has lived there.
I hope you guys find a rewarding new life in a wonderful place.
we both work (alot). and daycare is VERY expensive also. (I’ve only paid for 2 months so far!) it’s not just about the price of housing, it’s also about the diversity and weather!
I hear you about the money, other than that I have no feedback. My salary alone provides a lifestyle that would cost $38,000 in Iowa, but $85,000 in Manhattan. (I’m in Seattle.) It bugs me that my husband and I make a very respectable income, and we have a cheap mortgage, and childcare for two kids is going to take all the disposable money, and probably some of the bill money too. It’s a little weird to be looking forward to kindergarten for a kid that isn’t even born yet.
I grew up in Chicago, went to grad school in Salt Lake, and have lived in Denver for the past 4 years. I love Chicago, but it is definitely expensive. The “near north” suburbs are only about 16 miles from the city and have great schools but are pretty expensive. However, you might look at Skokie, Glenview, etc. There’s a sizable Asian population there. Otherwise, it’s either WASPy or Jewish.
Salt Lake is a beautiful, small, clean city with a lot of very, very, very, very conservative scary people in it. And–keep in mind that Salt Lake is only about 50% LDS–the rest of the state is closer to 90%. If you are a Democrat, you will throw your vote away in presidential elections for the rest of your life there.
Denver is nice. I didn’t plan on winding up here but have grown to enjoy it. Yes, Colorado is very conservative but Denver/Boulder is not. You can get a 3 bedroom house with a basement and a yard in a nice neighborhood within the actual city limits for about $350,000. May even be cheaper now as housing prices come down. Try looking in the following neighborhoods: Stapleton, Cory-Merrill, Washington Park, Highlands (NOT Highlands Ranch!), or around University of Denver. And there are a lot of perks being near the mountains and near a lot of national parks that you just don’t get in many other urban areas.
Good luck!
Ugh we live in Los Angeles and both work in the entertainment industry so we’re stuck here wahhh…. Unless of course we move to New York and live even worse for the money. We went home to visit my family in Southeastern Connecticut over the holidays and realized we could live like kings there on our income, but what the heck would we do for work? It’s so depressing. I live in Silver Lake, which is kind of the Greenwich Village/Soho of L.A. and is, ironically, one of the only neighborhoods in the city where housing prices have continued to appreciate during the real estate crisis. There are ramshackle 800 sq ft. bungalows in my neighborhood that go for $800K. To buy anything decent would cost $1 million.
Good luck in your search, I’ll be interested to hear how it goes. I’ve been to Denver, it’s very pretty, I would vote for that!
Atlanta is so big and international-ly (yes, I make up words!) that it doesn’t truly retain that Southern City feel. I mean, some of it is there, but it’s mostly the good stuff. You drive out of Atlanta, and yeah, you’re very much in the South. But as a city, I would say not to let its geographical location make the decision for you. It’s not like Columbia, SC, which *does* retain the Southern City thing.
So glad we moved away from Columbia. LOL
Other than that, I can’t contribute much.
Well, since you’re asking, I’d recommend my hometown of Portland, Oregon. Yes the property taxes are high, but housing is still pretty affordable for all that. The $200,000 mortgage you pay now will still net you a similar-sized home in SE Portland. Or if you’re willing to pay $400,000, you can get a 3 story, 5 bedroom home on 1/2 acre lot.
NO SALES TAX!
It’s illegal to pump your own gas.
Lots of parks and outdoors.
Incredibly friendly people.
Powell’s bookstore.
And what I think is the biggest draw for you, Portland Public Schools has a K-12 Mandarin immersion program. There’s also a similar program for Japanese. Basically, it works by having the students taught half the day in Mandarin in various subjects, not just language, so they’re fully immersed in listening, talking, reading, and writing in Mandarin. There’s special teachers for those Mandarin classes, but the students are at normal public schools so half the day they’re in normal English classes with students who aren’t in the program as well. The student has to be admitted at the kindergarten level though so that they can keep up with the rigor of the program. My cousin’s kid is in middle school now and has been doing it since kindergarten. But he was able to read and write cards in Chinese even back in first grade. The schools involved are in SE Portland, where there’s a larger Asian population, although Portland is pretty racially mixed everywhere.
More info about the elementary school in the link. But I can give you plenty more details about Portland itself if you’re interested.
http://www.pps.k12.or.us/schools-c/profiles/?id=297%20
Oh, and P.S. there’s also a weekend Chinese language school if the immersion program isn’t for you.
And these links too.
http://www.askasia.org/chinese/programs/parents.htm
http://www.askasia.org/chinese/programs/students.htm
http://www.askasia.org/chinese/programs/principals.htm
For what it’s worth….
I have lived in DC and currently live in Berkeley. My husband (who is Chinese American from the East Bay) and I (white girl from the Midwest) spent some time a few years ago checking out various cities near family where we thought we might like to live, including Denver.
There were many things I loved about Denver, but we were only able to find one neighborhood that was not waaaay out in the suburbs and was minimally racially integrated — and we did not see one Asian person in the time we spend wandering that neighborhood.
That said, this was five years ago, we didn’t do an exhaustive search, and god knows I am biased after living in the Bay Area for the past eight years. But figured I’d reply in case it would be helpful to you.
(My husband’s recollection: “I remember the city being pretty white, except when we went to that Mexican restaurant.”)
Hopefully Mr. A would earn a big city salary as well. I live right over the DC line in Silver Spring, MD. Three bedroom houses in my neighborhood are in the $400 K – $500 K range (when I bought my house 8 years ago it was in the $200 K range). There are plenty of lawyers and many, many children in our neighborhood, and it is pretty diverse and definitely liberal. My kids go to Montgomery County schools, which are among the best public schools in the country (the high school in our cluster in in the top 10 nationwide). Plus, there is are public immersion Chinese school in Rockville (a bit further out from the city) and Potomac (I think you have to live in very pricey Potomac to get in to that one). I agree that it might be smart to rent for a while and then buy after looking around a lot. Good buys can be found if you are patient.
Wandering Chopsticks
Just curious…where, praytell are these three-story, five bedroom homes on a half acre in Portland for $400K? In SE? I like SE a lot but it was always WAY too pricey for me and the homes are very cute but small and on little lots. I can see getting a 1/2 acre for that price on the outskirts like Newberg or McMinnville or possibly even Sherwood. But right now I’m living on a postage stamp, 3 bedroom, 1900 sq.ft. 2 story worth near 400K. (I rent, btw) Is there some secret in SE I’m unaware of?
I’m with Shelly, you should definitely consider the Twin Cities. I think you and Mr. A would love St. Paul, and hey, you’re already used to 7 months of winter, right?
We have two Chinese immersion schools, and one is affiliated with a Chinese immersion daycare that I hear is wonderful.
This isn’t just me touting my city — I’m not originally from here. I have moved around a lot, and I love it here. It’s big enough, but still very manageable (Chicago is definitely too big/spread out for me).
Probably if A gets a job in DC you would end up living in either Maryland or Virginia. I rent in an area called Takoma Park that is right near the metro.
Lisa F., Wandering Chopsticks and anyone else wondering about Portland, Oregon real estate prices -
I don’t know if you all saw the article in Sunday’s paper, “What can a buyer get for $300,000″, but here’s the link: http://tinyurl.com/ytjuu6 or http://preview.tinyurl.com/ytjuu6. You might want to take a look.
I know a little about the Philly area – about an hour outside – can use public transit into the city. $400 can get you that McMansion with descent schools.
If you’re interested, email me & I’ll send you some info.
Good luck!
Ditto on Philly as an affordable option, though I don’t know what the schools are like. One thing I wanted to throw in is that rent isn’t necc. throwing money away, depending on what a comparable mortgage would be. This woman has a lot more info on it: http://millionairemommynextdoor.blogspot.com/2007/10/rent-grow-rich-be-free.html
We’re still hoping to buy, even though we’re moving to an area where rent is FAR cheaper than a mortgage, but that’s because I hate having to deal with landlords, even our current ones who are quite nice.
My sister lives in Takoma Park, MD, which straddles the DC/MD border. She works downtown and takes the Metro. I think most houses are in the $600k range and it’s known as a really progressive neighborhood. Lots of diversity. And lots of ordinances. Like no gas lawn mowers. And no tree killing. And it’s a nuclear free zone! She loves it there. I can put you in touch with her. She doesn’t collect Prada bags.
Hey, you should move to my town of Adelaide, Australia. It is awesome! (Sorry, totally wanted to chime in).
I love this post so much, because I’m originally from Denver, Colorado. I met my Japanese husband at university there. The city is amazing and gorgeous. People are friendly. Food is good. So many Japanese based shops and areas like Sakura Square, where my hubby could rent Japanese movies, buy Japanese magazines and buy everything he missed from Japan. Also for what it’s worth, there are some fab Chinese shops and stores around as well in little plaza type areas as well. It’s a lovely place and I wish I could live there again. There’s a good Japanese based community in Denver, I know because, we used to be a part of it for a few years. And there is a good Chinese community and Korean community too. I’d raise my hafu children there in a heart beat. You would really love, Denver, I know it! : )
$400 thousand for a house sounds like a bargain for us, but then I am living in Japan, what can I say. I sometimes wonder, the kind of house we could buy, if we sold our house here in Japan and moved back to Denver or to Hawaii.
Man, I envy you Denver, should you choose that. : )
We are planning on moving from Detroit to either Dallas/Ft Worth or Austin TX in the next 5-10 years. I’m sure its going to be a HUGE culture shock for us. After doing a lot of research, the cost of living is actually much lower than Detroit and we can get a wholelotta house for the same price as our piece of crap house in a lousy neighborhood.
Plus, the diversity situation is much better for us in TX since my son is Hispanic.
Of course, this is all dependent upon us actually being able to sell our house, which could be a stretch.