Wow, I am so shocked that I was not completely buried in comments by adoptive parents who believe exactly what I believe! No seriously, if I thought you were all going to agree with me, I wouldn’t have put in the part about throwing the rotten tomatoes. Heh.
A few points I wanted to elaborate on a little from the comments on the last post. My apologies because I simply do not have the time to reply to every argument in every one of the very long comments. I am going to use a few quotes to touch on points that stuck out to me in multiple comments. You were all just a little too comment-prolific today.:
Christine says:
“I did nothing to contribute to L’s situation being what it was, and nor did you. Nor did either of us contribute the situations of the other 15 million orphans in China….Worldwide, there are an estimated 50-200 million orphans. Less than 2% of those children will be adopted into families. ”
Did we contribute to the creation of all these “orphans” in China, many of who are not orphans at all but children who are abandoned due to one of the most blatent human-rights violating laws currently enforced anywhere in the world? Maybe we didn’t directly contribute, but what did we do to prevent it? Is there a global outcry against these human rights abuses? Are their trade sanctions like those we enacted against South Africa when they were under apartheid? Do we look the other way so we can buy $7.00 Tshirts at Target?
As for the global orphan crisis (and I will agree it is a crisis) maybe less than 2 percent will be adopted into families, but of those 143 million orphans (in 2004) 90% are in some kind of kinship care. In most of the world most of the time, when parents die or can’t care for their children, extended families step in. To me, a better question is how do we make sure that the remaining 10% of orphans can remain with their extended families?
And in a world where there are 143 million orphans, why are we in the U.S. still shaming unwed/teenage mothers into relinquishing their children who are not orphans at all? In many cases, these infants have parents who are perfectly capable of parenting them successfully if they were provided adequate support (financial, educational, child care etc.).
That was what I was trying to say, that adoption should be a last resort. Only to be used after every single other option for keeping a child in his or her family of origin has been exhausted.
My good friend C says:
“I agree with you about the $5,000 being a reasonable amount, but I have to admit that it does make me nervous because I think they higher number does increase the potential for corruption. Unfortunately, it is definitely the orphanage donation in some places that is undermining an ethical system in some places in China.” When we considered is that when there is corruption on an individual level, like that in the Hunan scandal, it appears to involve children who were voluntarily relinquished.
Yes there is corruption in the Chinese adoption system. Hell, there is corruption in every single layer of the Chinese government. Mr. A and I knew this without a doubt when we entered into L’s adoption. We felt comfortable that most of the evidence of corruption we found in our research was at a grass-roots level (i.e. mone changing hands between “finders” and orphanages or between one orphanage and another like Hunan scandal) rather than within the larger governmental system. Not that any corruption is good, but we felt like the overall system was better than some other countries. If we were doing it again, I don’t know if I would feel the same way.
To me, the bigger ethical problem is the idea of adopting these “illegal” babies. Babies with intact families who want them enough to risk life and limb to bring them into the world. I have written whole posts on how I justified my choice in the past. Now, looking at my lovely L and wondering how I would leave her if she were illegal for me, the ethical problems sting a little more.
Did we support an unethical, corrupt system with our adoption? Yes, at the end of the day, I think we did. Does it do L any good for me to deny that? I don’t think so.
Theresa says:
“Don’t you find it hypocritical to say that you are pro-choice and then state that you would do everything in your power to prevent your daughter from placing her child for adoption? Shouldn’t the decision be entirely hers, without interference or pressure from other people?”
No. I don’t find it hypocritical at all for me to do everything in my power to protect my children from the life-long losses inherent in surrendering a child for adoption. I never said I would “interfere” or “pressure” them. I said I would do everything in my power to prevent it. By that, I meant I would provide as much material and emotional support as possible, in addition to making sure they had access to any programs/services for which they are qualified. I would also never shame my children for choosing to parent their children, regardless of their financial or marital status.
Again from Theresa:
“Wasn’t abandonment a problem in China before IA? I really think it would still go on, IA or no IA, and I think it’s misguided to blame adoption for the pain these children suffer.”
Absolutely, child abandonment has always been a problem in China. But MOST PARENTS in China, even in the very worst of circumstances, do NOT abandon their children. So I am looking at the anomolies and trying to think about lessoning the impact of the rare occurances.
I don’t believe that ADOPTION hurt L. I don’t think I ever said that. If I did, what I meant was the SYSTEM that brought L to me caused huge, huge losses. This includes (but is not limited to) the laws that may have forced her parents to abandon her, the institutionalization, the complete lack of regard for her attachment to her caregivers, the handing her over to complete strangers with no chance to get to know us, and the sending her to a country where every single thing was different.
To me, adoption by an American family is better than living in an orphanage in China. But adoption by a Chinese family would have been preferable. And placement with that family when she was much younger would have been better. And never having to have been abandoned on the street would have been better yet. And at the end of the day, L would have suffered the fewest losses if she had been able to stay with her BIRTH FAMILY*.
There is no reason for China to be doing international adoptions for healthy infants, because there is a strong demand for healthy infants (boys and girls) domestically. Lots of Chinese families are ready, willing and able to adopt them. Heck, there are even stories of children being brought INTO China from Vietnam to be “adopted” by Chinese families who desperately want children. I know plenty of Chinese parents who adopted their children and more than a few Chinese people I have met tell me about the adoptees in their extended families. Adoptions happen in China, they may be secret, but they are not uncommon. Keeping these babies in their culture and country would remove one more layer of loss.
It is a complicated problem. It is a systematic problem. I am not saying that ending adoptions would solve these problems (please, someone show me where I ever said that??). I am not saying that I don’t want YOU to adopt, or even that YOU should feel the way I feel. I was just sharing some of the conflicted thoughts in my own head.
And of COURSE there are happy adoptees! Jesus, Of COURSE, I hope L will be happy to be in our family. OF COURSE, I believe she has every possibility of having a happy, healthy, good life.
I just also happen to think she could have had a happy, healthy, good life with her parents in China. Or with her extended family in China. Or with some combination of us and them. Or with Chinese adoptive parents. Or at the very least knowing her original identity.
So what is to be done about it? I don’t know. Right now, I am still grappling with my feelings about it all. Next, I am guessing we will begin to deal with L’s feelings and helping her understand why these decisions were made on her behalf, often to her detriment.
The very least we can do is have a dialog about it, right? I think deep down, most of us would agree that adoption in the world today is a flawed system.
The first step is admitting there is a problem.
_____________________________________________________________________
*Assuming they are not abusive or neglectful. Please note I have not used examples like those of children being adopted out of foster care. Most of the time, I think that that is one of the few adoption scenarios that is more likely to be less ethically sticky.
There is a gender dimension to this issue too, which is particularly relevant for China. This is an important statement: “Babies with intact families who want them enough to risk life and limb to bring them into the world.” In a country where abortions are widely avalable (sometimes even forced), why would someone go through with a pregnancy unless they wanted the child? The key, though, is the idea that they wanted the child *if* it was a boy. Once the baby was born, the reality of having a girl outweighed the desire to keep the baby. And thus the abandonment. Perhaps it is a cliche, but it is still very real in parts of Modern China. If we are addressing issues that lead to abandonment and adoption, then this has to be part of the discourse.
I also think that the two ideas – namely 1) placing babies without homes for adoption (perferable domestically, yes) and 2) fighting against the issues that lead to the existence of orphans in our world – can coexist. We can proclaim that these social problems MUST be addressed while still caring for and loving the children who are affected.
And yes, the whole socio-industrial complex which has evolved around international adoption has some serious issues. The China program (even for expat adoptions like ours) is fraught with problems, not the least of which is the fact that China has millions of orphans who are not being placed – domestically or internationally. We will not adopt again from China.
Today here in Holland talks are to stop adoption from china since three birthfamilies told a dutch tv programme their children were removed from their home for not paying for the extra child. When they went to look for this children they were told they were adopted internationally.. I read the article even more different after reading your last post..
I have 2 comments about this statement: “I just also happen to think she could have had a happy, healthy, good life with her parents in China.”
1) there are many, many Chinese-US immigrants who are VERY happy to have left China to live in the U.S.
2) there are many, many Chinese-American women who grew up being the ‘perfect Chinese daughter’ and have nothing but resentment to the attitudes and obligations of the ‘old ways.’
and then a question:
Is abandonment better, worse, or about the same as infanticide (which was very common in old China, and actually happens here, too, even though we have safe harbor)?
Obviously, gender is a huge issue in China. I believe that most parents would gladly keep their daughters (as the vast majority DO keep their first daughters) if it did not mean they would not be able to later have a son. There will always be some families who won’t, but the one child policy creates a much larger problem than would naturally occur, even in a historically patriarchal culture like china’s.
MIJK, I saw the original Spoorlos (?) program seeking birth parents, but were there additional birth parents located? If so, are those episodes available online? Or maybe the transcripts? I am very skilled with my google translator…
That point also illustrates the missing voice of Chinese birthparents. We can only guess at their motives. I have no doubt that more and more information will become available about their experiences in the coming years/decade.
As for Chinese immigrants who are happy to be in the US: How does that have anything to do with this? Most Chinese immigrants in the last 30 years are either college educated or joining their family members who are already here. Of course many of them are happy to be here, just as many other immigrant groups are happy to immigrate. That is completely different from children being sent without their consent. Or, even if they ARE happy to be here, it doesn’t erase the loss of their first home.
For every adoptee who is “happy” to be here, there are others who feel great loss. For that matter, being “happy” doesn’t proclude being sad about things that happened in the past. Only time will tell how our children will feel. If L grows up to not feel any loss or sadness, no one will be happier than me. Don’t we all want our children to feel unconflicted joy?
This is a topic I think about constantly, and it really kept me from feeling that we could “celebrate” our family day anniversary. I hate even calling it that since our daughter already had a family, but Gotcha Day makes me cringe, so there you go. Our daughter’s losses are beyond what I can wrap my arms around, and even as an adult adoptee, I know I will never understand the depth of it. It’s the main reason (not the long wait, not our ages) we will not adopt again. It’s just too painful on all fronts.
I do agree that adoption should be a last resort, and it is far from that in many countries right now. And it will remain so as long as there is such a huge worldwide demand to adopt – yes, that demand does contribute to the problem/corruption, no matter how much we want to deny it.
While I am hugely relieved that I was not parented by my birth family (birth parents or their extended family — they are a complete mess), I am also glad to have had the chance to get to know some of that family. My daughter will probably never have that option — unlike me, her questions will likely never be answered. It’s hard to imagine a bigger loss than that.
My husband is in denial about a lot of this, and having a child who is largely happy, eats and sleeps well, is developmentally on target, etc., makes it harder to remember all that she has lost. As usual, I have no point, but these are posts I will save to look at later. And it is a great discussion, and one that all current and prospective APs need to have…
AmFam, In response to your question: As for Chinese immigrants who are happy to be in the US: How does that have anything to do with this?
Where I thought I was going is: about Adopting from China, and immigrating from China
Fact: our kids were in the orphanage (or foster care) in China
Fact: we made an effort to bring them to the U.S.
Fact: we did bring them to the U.S.
Question: was it for Us or for them?
Fact: I put in my paperwork before LG was born, or abandoned
Question: did that set-up LG’s (my little girl) placement into the SWI?
Fact: I paid an orphanage donation (as do we all)
Question: does that set-up for future abandonments and corruption?
Q: do I buy $7 T-shirts from Target?
Answer (fact): yup
Q: did my ancestors want a better life and ‘escape’ to the U.S. from China?
A: yes
Q: even at the expense of splitting up the family?
A: yes
Q: are the future generations better off now?
A: we think so, I think that they thought so, but don’t exactly know, as we only know THIS way, and they are deceased now.
Q: Will my LG be better off now? Are we parents happier now? Will she be sad? Angry?
A: We think so. We think so. We hope not, but probably/possibly?
Anyway, thought provoking and worthy of discussion, and we (adoptive parents and our kids) will negotiate our ways in the days and years to come. Thanks for being honest and sharing.
AmFam: You’re definitely right about Chinese people’s attitudes to adoption. Last time you wrote about these issues I conducted a quick straw-poll of my classes (I teach in mainland China – college students aged 18-22). Over 80% of them felt there was no stigma attached to adoption in mainland Chinese society. 50% said that – depending on future circumstances – they themselves would be happy to adopt. Approximately 10% had witnessed adoptions within their extended families.
My husband (mainland Chinese) has an adopted cousin (extended family adoption) and feels the same way.
I do think that if international adoption wasn’t so lucrative then there would be more impetus to organise domestic adoption properly in the mainland. There’s a huge potential for adoptive families here, but no one in any level of government is reaching out to them.
There are so many things about these two posts with which I have to respectfully disagree, and a few points about which I do agree with you, but, the only thing I have time to comment on is this one:
“Why are we in the U.S. still shaming unwed/teenage mothers into relinquishing their children who are not orphans at all?”
I will preface this by saying that I am an attorney who works in adoption (and contrary to popular belief, I make between $375 and $500 for adoption work – I do not make thousands of dollars on adoption – I don’t make near enough for it to be a primary part of my practice), and I am married to high school teacher who has any number of pregnant teenagers in his classes. And from my point of view, there is very little shame imposed upon teenage girls who become pregnant, and of the very small percent who put their children up for adoption (many have abortions, and most of the rest keep their babies) – of the few who place their children for adoption these days, in my experience, are doing it because they want to go to college, or they want to go back to the life they were leading before they pregnant (cheerleading, band practice, all the “normal” teenage experience).
And why shouldn’t they? If it is their choice to give their child up for adoption so that they can go to college or simply continue their childhood, unencumbered by a sleepless, crying, demanding infant, I fail to see why that is a bad thing. I have to yet to personally see a birth mother SHAMED into giving away her child. I know this happened in the past, but, I don’t see it happening in domestic adoption today.
Gretchen
Gretchen-
I think what AmFam is talking about has less to do with the old-fashioned shaming (OMG, you degenerate slut, you have no right to sully your infant!) than the social stuff that definitely comes along with teenage pregnancy. A teenage mother needs a lot of social support to parent. She might or might not get that from her family. She might not know how to go about getting it from government agencies. And you can say whatever you like from your standpoint, but as a mother who had an unplanned pregnancy in my late teens, I can tell you there is still a lot of social bullshit to navigate in that situation. No, it isn’t the same as what young mothers had to face in the past. But it’s still there. Have you been to WIC assessments and classes? I have. And while I like the work that WIC does, it all depended on who was doing the social work as to whether I felt totally looked down upon or supported in any kind of way. I didn’t need to be told 10 times not to put coke in my baby’s bottle. There is a stigma in the grocery line when you go through with your WIC coupons. There is a stigma in being talked down to suddenly at every turn, and I was a straight A, scholarship student. There is stigma in being a teenage mother when someone tells you that if you can’t provide insurance for your baby it might be taken away from you, even though the man who said this to me was being incredibly misleading. Would he have said that to a mother who was simply poor, but older? I somehow doubt it.
While I’ve never been in an adoption agency (I never even considered adoption, though I did consider abortion initially) I know that young women who have gone have related the ways in which adoption was presented to them as the best thing they could do for their babies; because they were too young to know how to parent, because they could not provide the level of “stuff” or “stability” or whatever at this time in their lives. Which is I think what Amber is referring to when she talks about shaming. You say that these young mothers want to go back to band practice, etc, and maybe they do. But what else lies behind their decisions? Unsupportive families, maybe who tell them that their role is that “normal” teenage behavior, not caring for their infant? Maybe a family that is already pissed that their daughter had sex and put them in this (public) position?
I also have a hard time buying the line that young women place “so they can go to college.” I mean, isn’t that line of thinking part of the social pressure? I went to college with a child. Actually, I finished my BA with 2 kids and a spouse serving in Korea. The point is that there should be better social services so that there is never a reason a young mother should feel the need to place her child so that she can go to college.
And for the record, I have absolutely no judgement of women who genuinely do not want to parent. That is absolutely their right and I would never, ever wish to take that choice away from them. What I take a lot of issue with are the pressures that young women face, pressures and thinking that can lead them to make decisions they regret, even if that regret comes years down the road.
My 27yo guide in China plans to adopt rather than have children biologically, and most of her circle of friends in Beijing feel the same (she actually told me most of her generation, but I’m guessing her perspective was a little off on this).
She and her bf are exempt from the 1 child policy, btw-since they are both from 1 child families).
China of course is no longer an option for me, but we are seriously leaning back toward adopting from the foster care system for the next child-despite my bad experience with losing two little sisters previously (they are still in foster care 10 yrs later, because the sw doesn’t want them adopted by a white family). jb was always opposed to international adoption, and I am having a harder time rationalizing it myself these days. I know the orphan problem won’t go away, but I still worry about how the demand feeds corruption. No easy answers. ~lmc
Thank you, Brittany, for articulating the subtle pressures so well. I was also a teenage mother, albeit 20 yrs ago, and I can corroborate that if you are a smart A student (or even not) with goals, it is very very hard to fight to keep your baby. Even when your mother is as liberal as mine is. ~lmc
Re SPOORLOOS:
This is the website with all links to the programmes about little Eline’s search:
http://spoorloos.kro.nl/uitzendingen/seizoen45/2007-09-24/2007-09-24.aspx
There were no other Chinese birth parent searches afaik, possibly also because the Dutch adoption agencies were very much against doing it this way.
If you want the link to tonight’s invesitgative programme about Chinese adoption scandals (probably available online from tomorrow), let me know!
Sort of off topic, but for an interesting read on the Chinese attitude toward adoption in pre-Cultural Revolution China, I recommend Marguriete Chien Church’s memoir, “Adopted, the Chinese Way”. It’s beautifully written (especially the chapter dedicated to her adoptive mother) and one of my all-time favorites. I believe you can only buy it online.
Gretchen,
With all due respect, I practically choked on a cheerio when I read your comment. It may be that we are no longer shunning pregnant girls away and calling them sluts, but no social stigma? What? If that were the case, then Jamie Lynn Spears would barely be newsworthy. There is someone who HAS the financial means and is still stigmatized.
I got pg at 20 while in college. There were no health services to speak of, limited housing choices, difficult child care options, etc. It was so bad that in the early weeks of my pregnancy, I spent a whole 2 weeks on a vacation with my parents and didn’t tell them I was pg. Not so much because I thought they would call me a slut, but because I had no answers to give them about what I was going to do and there was really no help in finding those answers . (BTW, I miscarried that pg at just shy of 12 weeks.)
Slightly tangiental, but even when I became pregnant at 33, armed with a masters degree, a professional job, a long-term relationship, and “maturity”, I was encouraged to put my twins (or one of them) up for adoption. Why? Because I was not married. Because although I was working at a fairly decent salary, it wouldn’t be enough to give my kids “everything” (read: stuff), because I was disabled and couldn’t drive and what? was I going to take my kids on the bus?!?! (um, yes.)
My point is, that there is still a huge bias that in order to parent you need to be married, comfortably middle class, husband in middle management, wife stays home, minivan, suburban house with a backyard and a $1000 play structure built on the weekend by dad and a friendly uncle, enough savings for a college fund, enough expendable income for dance, soccer, violin, and tai kwan do lessons, etc. When you don’t have a lot of these things, the pressure is strong that your child would be “better off” with someone who can provide these things.
I’m totally fine with parents who want to put their kids up for adoption, and I’m sure there are some teen mothers who just don’t want to parent. But it shouldn’t be a choice between parenting and college, or parenting and graduating highschool, or parenting with a lifetime of poverty vs. adoption and maybe a chance of paying your bills. It is possible to parent and go to college and work and earn some kind of decent wage. But instead of adoption counselors (or whoever) telling teen moms that they face poverty, unskilled jobs, and that their children would be better off in the suburban tract home, we could offer support to make it work so at least the opportunity to parent would be there if the pg mom so desired.
Others have said it better than me, but to think there isn’t a social stigma involved in teenage/unwed pg and that there is no shame or pressure to go the adoption route is about the most naive statement I’ve heard in a long time.
If I every adopt, I’m going to start by adopting a highway because adopting a person is all too complicated.
http://www.AnUrbanStory.com
I’ve been reading this and Dawn’s site and trying to sort out my own thoughts on all of this. Maybe it SHOULDN’t be a choice between parenting and going to college. But, really, the choice to become a parent carries with it certain consequences. I am a mom with two young children, and I find it difficult to balance being a parent and being successful at my full-time job. Where I get sick time and vacation days. At my college, they didn’t give me a “get-out-of-the-test” pass when I was sick. If I had the flu, I still had to show up and take the exam. Meanwhile, if my baby has the flu, I just couldn’t leave her for something as trivial as an exam. My point is — had I been a parent while I was in college, my grades would have seriously suffered. Considering it was difficult enough for me to work part-time to pay my way through college, I think adding a child into that mix (including both caregiving and financial needs) would have likely made it impossible for me. I think educating young women about the reality of becoming a parent is a good thing.
I’m also not sure about providing social services to help a pregnant teenager keep her child but still go to college or do “normal” teenage stuff. I’m assuming this would mean providing child care or extra financial help. I just don’t know. I tend to be a social liberal, and I believe in the government providing a safety net for people. However, I also believe in taking personal responsibility for your actions, and I use consequence-based parenting with my kids. If you get pregnant as a teenager and choose to parent, as a consequence, your life is going to be different and harder than if you didn’t have a child. Heck, back to the whole working mom thing–I’m seeing the childless people or men with stay-at-home wives get the plum assignments and get advanced faster around here, because the working moms simply can’t be as flexible and can’t spend as many hours in the office. We have to get to the daycare center by 6pm or spend Saturday morning at gymnastics class or whatever, and it’s not as easy to put in the extra hours to be seen as “going above and beyond”. It’s aggravating to me, but I have to remember that I chose to have a family, and this is the consequence. If I had to pay more in taxes so a teenage girl could get free child care while I pay 25% of my income for child care…I wouldn’t be happy.
All that said, I do think as a whole that our country would be vastly better off if we truly valued families (in whatever incarnation they’re in) as much as the phrase “family values” is bandied about. But that would require a massive overhaul of our society, and I just don’t see us getting there anytime soon.
AmFam,
I’ve really enjoyed reading your last two posts and appreciate your willingness to dive into these choppy waters. While I respectfully disagree with you on many points I agree that it is important to address these issues rather than pretend that they simply don’t exist.
With regard to agency- and private attorney-facilitated domestic infant adoption, as opposed to adoption from foster care, I was also uncomfortable with the ‘sales and marketing’ aspect of the process. That discomfort was a major factor in our family’s decision to adopt from China instead of entering the domestic pool. However, I must say that there is no statistical evidence that the majority of teen mothers are being “shamed” into giving up their babies. In 2002, the most recent year for which there are reliable adoption statistics, there were approximately 22,000 non-relative, newborn domestic adoptions in the U.S.. (Source: Adoptive Families Magazine) That same year there were 432,808 live births to women under the age of 20. (Source: National Center for Health Statistics) Even if all of the infants placed for adoption in the U.S. were born to teen mothers, and there is no reason to believe that this is the case, that would mean that 95% of the babies born to women under the age of 20 were not placed for adoption.
(As an aside, the raw data needed to calculate the placement rate by age of birth mother are available on the NCHS website, but I don’t happen to have SAS or SPSS on my computer.)
Thank you for addressing my comment. One of my pet peeves is when people (not you) insinuate that adoption is the cause of child abandonment and orphans. It also irks me when people (again, not you) do not understand the global crisis of orphans. It is believed that orphans only exist in counties where there is international adoption, and that if there were no adoption, there would be no orphans. While your post did not hit those nerves directly, I still felt compelled to address those points.
I should clarify that it irks me when others spout off that adoption is responsible for ALL orphans.
GJ-
I fail to see how any teenage mother does not become intimately familiar with the consequences of choosing to parent. I mean…that’s just an asinine value judgement. That is a responsibility that every teen parent should be encouraged to take if they wish to do so, though. That’s the point. I think your comment is littered with assumptions about what you think a typical teen mother values and is like, just as Gretchen’s comment with the emphasis on cheerleading and band practice was. I also fail to see where anyone here said that social services should pay for a teenage mother to go and do her “normal” teenage things, by which I assume you’re meaning cheerleading, dating, whatever. What people are saying is that the support should be there to make it possible for them to get by with their child, to definitely finish high school, and yes, there should be more in the way of affordable childcare and housing and such when it comes to going to college. Frankly, it just makes good sense. Educated mothers earn more money and are probably more likely not to need that assistance later.
You know, I was a freshman in college with a baby, then when I returned and finished my last 3 years of my BA I had two kids under six and a husband who was serving overseas. I did not get special favors. I had no sick days. I graduated cum laude. I would never sit here and tell you that I’m a better mother than you because I COULD do that, or that I deserve to be a parent and you don’t because you couldn’t handle it. Are you honestly telling me that because I was 17 when I gave birth to my daughter I should not have parented? Am I an irresponsible parasite because I took WIC or because my daughter was on the medical card for about 5 months until we got her insured ourselves? I mean, you do realize that these scenarios apply to lots of women, not just teen mothers, right? Would you say the same thing about a 30 year old who needs economic assistance, perhaps temporarily? Does she not deserve to parent, either?
Again, to imply that a teen mother just doesn’t face consequences of choosing to parent is quite possibly the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard. They do, just as much as a parent of ANY age does, and you know what? They often face a lot more on top of that. Why in the world would anyone feel that a mother taking all that deserves such scorn, subtle as it may be?
GJ-
It seems that you are more interested in being the one (as in you as a part of society) to punish teen mothers for their bad judgment. You seem to want to boost the life that you have up by making sure others who made different choices than you did (even if they themselves might consider these choices to be mistakes) are punished with artificial consequences set up for the sake of punishment. Not what is in the best interest of baby/mother/family and even society. I agree that anyone who becomes pregnant is very quickly aware of the consequences.
Also, did you ever think that the things that might help teen mothers might also help you, a working mother giving 25% of your income to childcare? If health care, leave, childcare, and other services were provided in this country like they are in most industrialized countries, YOU would benefit as well.
another viewpoint: My daughter was in foster care in China. We are fortunate to be in contact with her foster mom who told me that they considered adopting my child, but decided to let her go to the USA because she would have a better life.
I don’t know if or how they knew she would be adopted internationally and not remain in an orphanage…but this is what she told us.
@shumei:
I’ve talked about this with my extended family in China and the reason is that most Chinese only see a Hollywood-ized version of the US.
They believe that America is the “land of opportunity.” People are rich, have multiple cars, and live a comfortable life.
Whereas in China, life is hard and full of competition.
Things like cultural-loss, self identity, and quality of life doesn’t compare to America’s standard of living.
But the fact is there are happy people in both America and China. And there are unhappy people in both places as well.
So I guess it just depends on what people think is a “better” life.
It seems to me that there are two situations to think about here – the immediate situation of a child in an orphanage that you may or may not adopt, and a long-term situation that led to the child being there. Does adopting that child somehow incourage the long-term situation (in this case, the one-child policy, cultural preference for boys, etc.)? Does NOT adopting that child somehow IMPROVE the long-term situation? I really don’t think so. Why not work towards improving both situations? If you would be awesome parents and a child needs parents, I say go for it. That doesn’t mean that you are approving of the reasons the child was abandoned. You can ALSO work towards improving the situation for children and mothers everywhere. Maybe that means not buying the $7 Tshirt or supporting a teenage mother or talking to your SWI director about incouraging domestic adoptions – whatever you think would make an impact.
I think international adoption has put more of a spotlight on human rights violations in China. For one, I think orphanages in China have improved, children are receiving better care and there is a much larger number of children in foster care now. International adoption is a reason that more people are even thinking about orphans in China. How often to you think of orphans in Romania? There are still orphanages there and children who need parents. But because international adoptions are closed, people aren’t thinking about it any more. At least one good thing to come out of international adoption is that more people are becoming informed and passionate about the situation in China because it now affects them personally.
Personally I don’t feel like I have any influence on how China chooses to run its adoption program or how China’s government policies lead to abandonment. These are things that are not within my control at all. I can hope that someday children will all be taken care of in happy and healthy homes. I can hope that adoption can someday be hardly ever necessary. I can do my best to make sure my home is happy and healthy. I can encourage other parents to think about the welfare of children everywhere.
To respond to Brittany and Lisa,
I think I misrepresented my comments a bit. First, to Brittany, I absolutely did not mean to imply that you, or anyone else, should not be allowed to parent. I’m just not sure that choosing to parent (at any age) should result in someone being given extra assistance beyond what others would get.
I agree that health care, sick leave, affordable quality child care, and even universal education up through college SHOULD be the norm here. However, until they are, I think there’s the potential for inadvertently “rewarding” certain choices.
For instance, on a microscale, my sister-in-law J had her first child as a teenager and now is a single mother of 5 kids. Her parenting is quite neglectful, and luckily her mother steps in and provides the bulk of the parenting and financial support. However, what this means is that my mother-in-law cannot help financially support J’s two younger sisters as they attend college. Actually, J’s two sisters end up babysitting the children more than J watches them, even though both of them work and go to school while J is often unemployed. J’s two sisters are quite bitter because they feel that they are being penalized because they made what their mom taught them was the “better” choice (notice, this was a value within their family, and I’m not suggesting it’s the “right” societal value). And I can see their point – because my MIL helped so completely with her first child and then with the subsequent children, J didn’t fully deal with the consequences of being a mother and readily continued choosing certain behaviors that led to having more children, because the pain wasn’t really hers to bear. So, to bring this back, I just have a concern about the system getting set up where it financially benefits someone who makes a choice to have a child at the expense of those who wait to have a child. [Note: I am not suggesting that my sister-in-law is the norm, but I also don't think she's the only one in a situation like this.]
GJ-
Thanks for commenting again. I agree that all the great things you listed above (childcare, education, etc) should be what we work toward as a society. I just don’t think that a mother who chooses to parent but needs assistance is necessarily getting more than anyone else would get. You can take advantage of financial aid based on income at any age, parent or not. The same things that should be helping a young parent, whether they’re single or not, too, should be helping you, who “waited” to have kids and work hard to support them. If we want to talk specifics, WIC is surprisingly open in the income guidelines. I can tell you that an E4 in the Army with 3 dependents qualifies easily. On an E6 income we received a grant that helped pay for childcare when I was in college for the second time. That grant was not just for young mothers or even just for parents going to school. It helped parents who were working to support their families get quality childcare. It is probably only now, on a Lt’s pay, that we have phased out of being eligible for programs like that, although I don’t know exactly because I have only used them for short periods when they were absolutely needed. I’m not an expert on this at all, but I think that shows at the least that the kind of assistance being spoken of does not all go down a drain of people who aren’t working hard or being responsible.
I think the thought process that is so appalling to me is the one that thinks teen mothers aren’t working hard because they happened to experience a pregnancy at a young age. I’m sure there are mothers like your SIL; there are mothers who are neglectful who have no money issues. I just think that using individual examples like that is a way in which we perpetrate the kind of thinking that says the majority of teenage mothers will probably end up like this, an idea that helps fuel the kind of pressure that leads a teenage mother to think she is being selfish or irresponsible to keep her child rather than passing it off to people who made the “right kind” of decisions. What are the right decisions, anyway? Lots of women are faced with the reality that their method of birth control failed them, even careful ones. That’s not something that hinges on the age of the woman.
I guess the most important thing I want to ask, and the thing that disturbs me the most about the subtle social judgment going on here, is why I’m seeing a woman being able to keep her child, even though she’s young, even though she’s poor and needs assistance in getting on her feet, referred to as “rewarding” her for “bad behavior”. I think the mindset that views that as a “reward” is pretty dangerous and exactly the kind that leads to a lot of the problems inherent with adoption systems that AmFam refers to.
Such an important conversation! I’m so glad you’re willing to start it, even anticipating that it won’t be popular. But you capture my own conflicted feelings so well.
I have 2 children adopted through the SN program from China. Every time I look at them, the joy I feel at having these 2 incredible little people in my life is shadowed by the sorrow I feel knowing that I shouldn’t be the one with that priviledge; that they are here with me as the result of tremendous losses for them, and for their first families.
I ask myself repeatedly if by adopting my children, I in some way contributed to those losses, either for them or for future children. It’s a difficult question to face, and to face honestly. And I think the answer is different for both children.
My son’s chances for a family domestically were slim to non-existant; his chances for a place in Chinese society as it is now and for the forseeable future were grim. (ok, to clarify: a place other than on the lowest strata of Chinese society) This doesn’t mean that his losses aren’t significant, just that I honestly believe that international adoption was truly the best option for his finding a family and having a bright future. And, I hope the fact that he and other children like him are wanted and considered desirable by international families, will influence Chinese society to reconsider their attitudes towards children and adults like my son.
My daughter, however. . . her SN is not visible. While I suspect that it may well have been known and contributed to the decision to abandon, once treated I don’t think it would have impacted her future in China. Once in China, we had the great priviledge of meeting her foster mother, and were told that her foster family had wanted to adopt her. However, they didn’t have the funds to do so. . . and they were “too old”. Now, we can give our daughter more “stuff”, and a better education than she probably would have received in China, but we can’t love her any more than her foster family did, and we can’t give her the pieces of her identity they could have preserved. And, unlike one of her listmates from that orphanage, she didn’t need treatment not available in China to survive.
Can you tell I feel incredible guilt over my daughter’s place in my family? Had I not adopted her, some other international family would have. . . but why should ANY international family have had the chance?
Of course, there are aspects to that I can’t answer: if her foster family didn’t already have her, and know and love her for the child she is, would she have been domestically “adoptable” as a girl with a corrected special need? Would she have gotten surgery without the influence of international adoption?
And, for me, the largest question of all: Did my children’s parents have the money to pay bribes, fines, for medical care, etc, and if not, were they abandoned not for their gender or the social impact of their special need, but because their parents couldn’t afford to keep them, or to get them the help they needed to survive?
There are no easy answers, in the world as it is, even to the relatively narrow international focus to the larger issue of adoption.