storm a brewin’
It was almost one year ago to the day that my mom and I had a big blow-out fight (which I apparently barely blogged) about me not wanting her to read the “Jesus book” to M.
And it seems like only yesterday that Mr. A and I had a big debate about the kids and church. Actually, that particular argument started about 7 months ago.
Lucky me, it seems like it is time for us to revisit this annoying topic yet again.
Apparently, now after 50 years, my mom seems to have found religion. She has started going to church every week. This is no big deal to me. If she gets something out of it, good for her.
Unfortunately, she seems to also have decided it is important for her to expose my heathenish children to church. She has asked if M could go to church with her TWICE in the last two weeks.
The first time, I said Mr. A was working Sunday afternoon so we wanted to have family time in the morning. I also mentioned that church was something that Mr. A and I would have to discuss together before I could let M go. This was A) true and B) a very polite way of letting her know that I was not enthusiastic. Then, she called again this saturday and asked if M could go on Sunday. Again, I brushed her off by saying that Mr. A and I had not discussed it yet.
Before she started going to church regularly, my mom asked me if there was a church we would be comfortable letting her take M to. I did some research and told her if she wanted to take our girls to a United Methodist church, we would be ok with that. I don’t agree with everything they believe but they are pretty low-key. The church my sister and I sporadically attended with my grandparents (and very occasionally my mother) was Methodist so it wasn’t like I was asking her to go to the Unitarian Devil worshippers or something. (For the record, we would also be OK with the United Church of Christ, the Unitarian church, or many of the other LIBERAL protestant mainline churches–the kind that might have clergy as member of RCRC.).
The church my mom has chosen is not a Methodist church. It is an evangelical megachurch. Who knows what the hell they believe because the “what we believe” page of their website is less than a page long.
Today, Mr. A and I discussed it.
Mr. A doesn’t want M attending the church my mom has chosen. He was really bothered by the Christmas play that included the crucifixion (inappropriate for a 4 year old and also not particularly relevant to the Christmas story) and also had some part that was weird and tokenish (if not outright racist) with a bunch of Asian kids dressed in kimonos clothing singing about Jesus with a Chinese face. Mr. A also has strong beliefs about which Christian doctrine(s?) he feels are the most valid. He doesn’t want strangers teaching our kids things he doesn’t believe. He also doesn’t want to have to attend this church to monitor what the girls are learning.
I don’t really want M to go to church because I am not a Christian, I am uncomfortable with the specific church my mother has chosen, and I think it is my perogative as a parent to decide what religious instruction our kids receive (or don’t receive for that matter).
It would be easiest if my mom would take the hint and stop asking to take M to church.
Unfortunately, it looks like she is going to keep asking, which means we are going to have to say no.
If we say now, there is going to be a big, blow-out fight between me and my mom.
I am really not looking forward to that at all.
June 30th, 2008 at 2:58 pm
What is it with moms finding religion later in life? My mom rarely took me to church as a kid and only tolerated it when my grandparents came to town and forced the issue. Now she is very involved in a church (which is great - social outlet and she gets something spiritual out of it) and just spent time telling me how I had to get my daughter baptized. I had to flat out tell her I didn’t believe my child would go to hell if something happened to her just because a “holy” man didn’t sprinkle water over her head. She isn’t happy with me.
Good luck with your mom.
June 30th, 2008 at 3:12 pm
This is becoming an issue with my mom too, and we are technically the same religion. But she is very old-school Catholic, and we are about as liberal as Catholics can get. Luckily, we have a wonderful church that is very diverse and focuses on issues of social justice. Unfortunately, they are also always in trouble with the Bishop (http://www.startribune.com/local/21630459.html), and my mother does not think that it is a “real” Catholic church.
The few times we have been to more evangelical churches, it makes me very uncomfortable. It’s all about praise the lord, praise the lord, and very literal (although not always accurate) biblical readings. It’s rarely about expressing your Christianity by helping others, living a simpler life or going outside of your comfort zone.
Anyway, the topic of religion is becoming a little tense with my mother. Suddenly, she is oddly surprised that we aren’t considering sending Ellie to a Catholic School. The public school system in our neighborhood is one of the best in the country, and it’s a primary reason we bought our house where we did. My mother is a reasonable grandparent in every other way (always defers to our direction and rarely offers unsolicited advice), but I know on the topic of religion she is highly inflexible. I’m just trying to put off what is likely an inevitable showdown…
June 30th, 2008 at 5:00 pm
Ugh, I feel for you. I’ve been super proud of my old school Catholic mother who has restrained herself from freaking out over my nephews being brought up in a megachurch and [GASP] not being “properly” baptized. I don’t have to deal with it, as I’m an obedient little churchgoer, but the idea of grandparents getting involved in this stuff just makes me cringe. Seems like they should resign themselves to giving your kids too much ice cream and buying too many Barbies. They can light candles for their heathen grandchildren BY THEMSELVES.
June 30th, 2008 at 6:42 pm
I’m lucky, I’m the religious NUT in my family, which means I attend an Anglican/Episcipalian church about four times a year. Here’s hoping my Mom finds God herself as she gets older and chooses not to share him.
June 30th, 2008 at 6:45 pm
Yeah, this post hits home a bit. Good luck and may the blowout not have too many repercussions. My parents are Catholic. I am loosely so–I haven’t found another faith/sect that I do really believe in so it is easier to stay familiar. (But I have pulled back pretty far and don’t go to church often or take communion). We baptized the kids. And I have been open to letting the kids go to mass with my parents (and I do get Mr A’s opinion on that. I am always ready to do a spin control but honestly, Catholic homilies are rarely explicit). The strangest/funniest thing to me is that, despite taking my brother and me to mass every week for 20 years, my parents find the kids hard to take to mass. They don’t even ask my 4 year old to go. My 6 year old started religious education (I agreed we would get through first communion, but after that we’ll review). She thinks she wants to go to mass until my mom actually invites her on Sunday. Then she’s not interested.
When I convinced my husband to baptize the kids Catholic (his family has a strong evangelical streak that we’d both like to avoid), I told him it was better if they had a mild religious upbringing to rebel against. Rather than feel they are missing something, something the bible revival church will offer to help them by be born again.
Good luck.
June 30th, 2008 at 7:15 pm
Ai yi yi, you have my sympathies. I don’t have kids, but well remember my grandparents’ reaction when my parents left the Catholic church to become Episcopalians. My parents took the strong-arm route, telling the grandparents to knock off any discouraging talk as to their choice, b/c if grandparents created enough static my parents would restrict our relationship. Pretty harsh, but it worked. Of course…it also helped that my dad’s parents were pretty racist, so my parents had no qualms with this kinda tactic (it applied to any racist discussion as well).
That being said, I don’t know what I’d do if my parents suddenly changed their tune and got pushy on this issue with a child of mine. Not easy, not fun, even when you know you’re in the right. Best of luck to you.
June 30th, 2008 at 9:48 pm
You and Mr. A are absolutely right. The difficulty with religion is that the one who wants to do the exposing usually deeply believes that their loved ones are going to H-E-double-heck unless they intervene, so they’re not likely to back down any time soon. Good luck to you. I’m going to email you.
LC
June 30th, 2008 at 10:39 pm
I dread this. My husband and I were both raised Methodist, but neither of us is religious at all. Our moms both go to church, and I’m sure we’ll encounter similar situations, although our moms are both very enlightened, and I don’t see this causing a problem for them. My dad…I don’t know what to think. He refused to go to church when I was a kid, but has done the whole “finding god” thing in more recent years. I have a feeling it will be a tricky subject at times.
July 1st, 2008 at 3:03 am
Yuck. It sucks that your mother won’t respect you on this one. The megachurch is probably telling her the grandbabies will go to hell if she doesn’t bring them.
Stand your ground.
July 1st, 2008 at 3:53 am
This is such a tough one. I have the same issues with my inlaws. They are from the wave-your-hands-around and convert-people-on-street-corners kind of church. Their church is incredibly sexist and homophobic. (Oh, if you are gay, they will help save you and turn you straight again. Yep.). Luckily my inlaws live on the other side of the country. Yay!
July 1st, 2008 at 4:56 am
I agree with you too. Also, I think since you are the mom of M and L, then the decision should ultimately be between you and Mr. A. Anyone else is just gonna have to respect your choices. Whether they agree with your choices or not. And that’s fine too. But you and Mr. A are the parents, so you guys should be the ones to decide how your want to raise your girls and under what religion or even if you guys decide not to be religious at all, too, again, it’s your and Mr A’s choice, your decision. Know what I mean? : ) Either way it should be up to you guys. : )
For what it’s worth, I was raised Catholic. My grandmother’s house was like a mini Vatican gift shop while growing up, ha ha ha. My Italian American parents are also huge on the whole Roman Catholic stuff.I was sent to Catholic school all my years. That’s all I know. And I’m comfortable that way. Granted I’m not a religious fanatic or anything and I don’t shove my ways down other people’s throats either . And then I married a guy from Japan and he’s not religious at all, go figure, lol. But we are raising our kids as very relaxed Catholics. Yet Catholic nonetheless (baptized as well). For a lot of the people in my family, I’m not religious enough and blah blah blah. And that’s okay. It’s their opinion. You know what I mean? : ) Anyway….: )
Good luck with the talk between you and your mom. I’ll be keeping my fingers crossed it all works out okay. : )
July 1st, 2008 at 6:43 am
I totally agree with you. You are the parents, you make the decisions regarding your kids’ religious teachings, if any. However I wanted to share my story as anecdotal evidence.
My parents have never set foot in a church since I’ve been alive, except for the occasional wedding or funeral. When I was a kid, my grandmother, a Jehovah’s Witness, used to take me to the Kingdom Hall with her every once in a while. (I need to ask my mother why she allowed this, actually.) At first I thought it was ok because my Grandma gave me candy from her huge purse, and everyone called each other Brother and Sister (lastname), and after the sermon people stood up and discussed it and someone brought a microphone on a boom to them at their seat - this was the coolest thing ever to me. Later I found the whole thing rather fascinating, especially when she told me there were only 144,000 people who were going to heaven, ever, and she had only met one of these people in her lifetime. I remember thinking this was not fair, since all I ever saw my Grandma doing was going to church or going door to door “witnessing” and handing out Awake and Watchtower magazines. I’m sure she did other stuff, lol, but that’s all I remember her doing.
Anyway, I think this was happening from approximately age 7-10, so definitely older than M. But as fascinated as I was, I never once thought that what I was hearing was The Truth, you know? It was all just interesting observations to me, and I have been agnostic my entire life, really.
So if in a few years things between your mother and you become unbearable around this issue, it’s possible that M could go with her a few times and emerge unscathed. Good luck, dear.
July 1st, 2008 at 1:39 pm
I have the same sort of issues with my mother, although she has yet to actually force the issue quite like your mother is now. I was raised Catholic, now my religious beliefs are a mix of pagan and buddhist. What I most strongly want to emphasize to my kids is that I don’t think there is any ONE way to experience divinity or spirituality, and anyone saying they have the only way is deluded and not to be trusted. Faith is so personal…I like the idea of the UU church, and may go there soon because my daughter likes the idea of church. (Which for her, is basically the singing. She loves singing.) I allow my mother to take her to mass when we’re around and she wants to, but not to Sunday School. I totally agree with Mr. A: you don’t want M being taught things that you not only do not believe, but find offensive, by other people. I constantly find myself clarifying for my kids that the things they hear from others (my SIL, my mother, others in the Christian majority) are not what I believe and they aren’t the only beliefs.
My mother believes very deeply that kids need a foundation of religion in their childhood. I don’t really think I believe that. Religion doesn’t equal morality and ethics, ya know? I think maybe kids need a sense of community. That doesn’t have to come from church. But I do like the UU thing.
July 1st, 2008 at 3:13 pm
I always love the posts where the comments are as interesting as the post itself! I do understand the dilemma, too– on the one hand they’re YOUR children, but on the other hand I also understand the desire to avoid an argument if possible. Do you think your mother really can’t tell you aren’t interested in sending M to her church? Or is it possible she’s deliberately ignoring the hints in favour of either winning you over or forcing the confrontation?
If she does keep at it, could you bring up the United Methodist option again? Maybe say you understand and respect her desire to include her granddaughter in something so important to her, but that she’s going to need to meet you at least halfway, and that the halfway point in this case is a United Methodist church? Whatever does happen, best of luck
July 1st, 2008 at 4:58 pm
I so feel for you-my best friend’s mother is a charismatic christian, and they finally had to not allow her alone time with the kids-heartbreaking.
All 4 of S’s grandparents are atheists-my mother moving toward agnostic in her “old age” ; )
And um, Lee-as a south mpls person-I didn’t know JofA was a “real” Catholic church-been there a few times for similar social justice services ; ) My Irish Catholic grandmother would have loved it-she was always in trouble with the priests at the catholic parish she taught at and attended.
~lmc
July 1st, 2008 at 6:41 pm
I fear this conversation will one day happen between my mother and me. She has already asked about bringing my two-year-old, who can not make it through story time at the library most weeks, to church with her. My mother’s church is homophobic and sexist and I will not allow my child to attend a service.
July 2nd, 2008 at 1:59 pm
Shouldn’t it be M’s decision? What wrong could come out of going to church a few hours per week? However, only good things could come out. If you are an atheist, it does not mean that your daughter has to be the same. Would you be angry with your daughters if one day they decide that they are Christians?
I think you’re projecting your own atheist mentality onto them without not seeing both sides of the story. What you believe now might not be what you will believe later, and certainly might not be what your children will believe.
July 3rd, 2008 at 12:43 pm
[...] There are other times that comments make me think of another whole post I could write. Like this comment by Michelle from my recent post about my mom wanting to take M to church. Shouldn’t it be M’s decision? What wrong could come out of going to church a few hours per week? However, only good things could come out. If you are an atheist, it does not mean that your daughter has to be the same. Would you be angry with your daughters if one day they decide that they are Christians? [...]
July 10th, 2008 at 6:23 pm
It stinks that your mom can’t just respect that you are raising the girls with strong values of compassion and respect, and let it go at that. It’s not surprising, given the fervor most folks feel when they have a religious awakening, but it still stinks.
I hope the eventual conversation is as painless as possible. Courage!