Comment Reply
Have I mentioned that I love getting comments? I do. I love, love, love them. And you would think I would try to do a better job of answering them so people would be encouraged to write more. As hard as it may be to believe it, I am actually pretty shy. My palms get sweaty when I email people I don’t know. I read and re-read my emails wondering if I sound like a dummy. If I write to someone and they don’t write back, then I wonder if they thought I am more of a loser via email than I am on the blog. Oh, the email anxiety! (And now I am worrying that this entire paragraph may actually be TMI, but on we go anyway.)
There are other times that comments make me think of another whole post I could write. Like this comment by Michelle from my recent post about my mom wanting to take M to church.
Shouldn’t it be M’s decision? What wrong could come out of going to church a few hours per week? However, only good things could come out. If you are an atheist, it does not mean that your daughter has to be the same. Would you be angry with your daughters if one day they decide that they are Christians?
I think you’re projecting your own atheist mentality onto them without not seeing both sides of the story. What you believe now might not be what you will believe later, and certainly might not be what your children will believe.
This comment left me scratching my head. I mean, M is only FIVE years old. I make decisions for her all day long. Why should church be any different?
When M and L are old enough to make their own decisions, they will be free to go to church or temple or whatever they choose. Heck, I will even let them be Republicans if it floats their boat. But I am not going to send them to Young Republican camp just in case they may have those beliefs later.
Childhood is the time where their father and I will have the opportunity to share OUR values and OUR beliefs with them. It is our perogative as their parents.
My mom RARELY took my sister and me to church. She missed her chance to share her beliefs with me. She doesn’t get a do-over with my kids as a way of trying to fix her mistake. This isn’t to say she can’t share her beliefs with our kids. She can. She can talk to them about it as much as she wants, as long as she is respectful of Mr. A and my beliefs.
But we will not allow her to take our kids to learn OTHER people’s beliefs without knowing what our children are being taught. I don’t know what the sunday school teachers teach there, or what the minister preaches. I don’t have the time or the inclination to go find out. Mr. A went to the Christmas play to see if he was comfortable with this specific church’s teachings. After that, he decided he *wasn’t* comfortable with the girls going there. I won’t send them to a church that may (or may not) tell them their parents and family members and friends are going to hell. I am not willing to spend my sundays policing the messages that the girls receive from strangers.
What wrong could come out of M going to church a few hours a week? Well, *I* used to go to church every week with my grandparents. And one week, the minister’s wife took it upon herself to show my 9 year-old self pictures of aborted fetuses and told us how abortion doctors would go to hell and how abortion is murder.
These statements were totally against this denomination’s official stance on abortion. I also do not think they were statements that my parents would have supported. But my parents weren’t at church, so I didn’t know how they felt about what I was learning there.
I was horrified and had nightmares for years after that day. I was strongly against abortion based on that one conversation.
Until I grew up, started thinking for myself and decided that woman was a jerk who was taking advantage of impressionable little kids. I also decided I didn’t believe in a God who was not compassionate for women and families in crisis*.
And I got a job at an abortion clinic. I am very proud of that choice.
Funny how things work out, isn’t it?
Will I be angry if my children grow up and choose to be Christians? Of course not. My husband is Christian. I have lots of Christian friends. Most of my extended family is Christian. I like most of them. Heck, I even worked in Christian churches in my last job and I have tons of respect for the people I met and they work they do.
I will not be angry if my children grow up and choose to be Christian, but I will be greatly disappointed if my children grow up and don’t feel compassion for people in difficult circumstances. I will be sad if they can’t love and accept people who are different from them. I will be sad if they don’t grow up to be kind and loving with open hearts.
Could they learn these things in church? Maybe. Hopefully. But the wouldn’t learn it in every church.
They hope they will learn it from me. If that is what my “mentality” teaches them, I will die a proud and happy mother.
*And does that mean I don’t believe in God? No. That athiest label was not mine. I only said I wasn’t a Christian.
I’m with you on this one - especially since you have been very clear with your mom on which denominations you would be comfortable with. If she really wants to take M to church, she could take her to one that you find acceptable.
My kids have often been invited to attend activities with friends who attend more conservative churches. (We’re United Methodists.) I’ve sometimes said no if I thought the dogma would be too strong. Why would I send my kids to be indoctrinated into something I am opposed to?
And not to pick on Michelle, but . . . Christians often use the “seeing both sides of the story” and “you should let your children decide for themselves” arguments with non-Christians. But I don’t often see them encouraging atheists, agnostics, or members of non-Christian religions to share their views with the Christians’ children.
Ummm… yeah. My recovering Catholic and recovering Mormon parents let me go to Kiwanis with my best friend in elementary school because I begged to, but I got pretty freaked out because they kept telling me I needed to accept Jesus and read the Bible or I was going to hell.
So I’m all for parents being involved in their kids’ religious education and sitting in on some of the classes and whatnot, regardless of whether you share the same beliefs.
Good luck with your mom. You’re doing the right thing, and she shouldn’t try to guilt you or make you feel bad for doing what you feel is best for you kids.
well said……..
Meg
I’ll comment, esp. because of your first paragraph about liking comments.
Wow. I love it when I read a post that says something so well. I have had similar thoughts on my children and religion, but less articulately. I will be thinking about this.
I’m shy about leaving comments, so there you go.
I also feel the same way about kids and church. While my in-laws haven’t pushed the issue of church, I know that, if my daughter happens to be with them on a Sunday morning, she’ll go to church with them. So she has spent a Friday night or two with them, but not a Saturday night. Like others, though, I think you said it more succinctly than I ever could.
Lisa has an excellent point. The other day, my daughter and I were going to go read a book about archaeology and ancient history, and she asked if a friend could come along. I said no, in part because the house was a wreck (heh) but also because I know that that particular friend’s family is very religious, and I wasn’t sure what the book had to say about evolution, etc. You can bet I would have heard from her parents if I’d told the kiddo anything that went against their beliefs–and, honestly, justifiably so.
I would feel exactly the same way. EXACTLY.
P.S. You should read “The Abstinence Teacher” by Tom Perrotta. Very relevant to what you’re talking about here.
I so agree with you and the commenters. We are not religious and we have had this discussion (and issue with my mother as well). It is our decision, as you said, to expose/instill/make known our beliefs to our child, not our parents/friends/neighbors.
I wonder if the original commenter would allow me (or someone with my beliefs) to educate their child on the afterlife, how to treat others, the existence of multiple gods, no god(s), reincarnation, whatever the “other” belief my be?
I don’t feel a five year old should be given such powerful dogma without the guidance of her parents; it is confusing and a decision that an adult should and can make for themselves. Exposure is one thing, but it should be explored as a family if at all.
Sorry for the lack of flow in my response–very tired!
Great! Now stick to your guns, but as the girls get older expect to have to explain your position. If they love and admire your grandparents this is going to be difficult.
Letting them make their own decisions about religion is one thing…but letting them be Republicans? Oh the horror! You must not allow that to happen!
As others have said, the church your mother is offering to take the girls to does not offer reciprocal respect. This is the difficulty. I went to church with my grandparents, even had a few nightmares about hell after going to Baptist bible camp with my best friend, went to the synagogue, etc. when I was growing up-but the “rule” was always that people coud share their beliefs with me, but couldn’t create any conversion pressure (the bf even apologized for her minister, even though we were only 9 at the time). One of my sisters did become a Christian based on going to UMC with my grandfather. I explored a lot of things and even taught a world religions class for middle school kids for a while-which is what really led me to define my values in terms of Humanism. Another sister really has no interest in any of it-just does nothing for her. Last sister has some sort of fusion spirituality that I can’t follow. My mother is happy with all of our choices, as I will be happy with S’s. All she wanted was for everyone to respect our ability to find our own path. ~lmc
I believe in flying spaghetti monsters.
Republican youth camp. Hmmm. Pondering.
I’m with Michelle – Republican! Too scary! I’ve commented to my husband that the two things that could really break my heart as a mom are to have Ellie join the military or become a die-hard conservative Republican. I shouldn’t say things like that out loud…
For me, the challenge is not going to church, it is WHICH church. And I don’t mean which faith or general denomination of church (Methodist, Catholic, etc.). Even within a specific faith, different churches often take very different approaches. You definitely need to be on board with the messages the church your children attend are hearing.
As I have said many times, I love the particular catholic church we attend. But I have been to plenty of catholic churches that I would not want my child to attend.
It doesn’t sound like you are comfortable with the message and tone of the particular church your mom attends. It doesn’t appear to me that you are opposed to church or Christianity in general, but you need to be comfortable with the specific church M and L attend. That seems reasonable to me. More than reasonable really!
What I find interesting is that I doubt anyone would ever ask a family who attends Church every Saturday to leave their kids at home lest they influence them by attending services!!lol
Julie
EXCELLENT response!!!! I especially like the part about you having a prerogative as a parent to impart your values on your children while they’re young and then let them choose when they’re older. I get very upset when other people try to educate my children, that’s why I fully agree with you that you shouldn’t let her go, that you need to *know* who you’re letting M interact with.
Like Jess, I’m a little shy about leaving comments too…
This is an excellent post. The whole point is, it wasn’t about whether you were going to let your kids go to church at all. You had clearly set boundaries/guidelines about what you were comfortable with, and this particular church goes beyond that.
I, too, had a weird experience one time when I was with my cousins and my little sister and I went to vacation bible school with my cousins because that’s what we were doing. I was 12, my sis was 4, so we got separated into different groups. To me it was just “boring”, but I remember wondering how my sister was doing and what they were having her do. All in all it turned out to be innocuous, but it certainly could have been a lot worse.
Ooi boi. I was raised fundamentalist christian, and it totally fucked me and my brother up. He killed himself after a decade’s dabblence in hinduism and judeaism. I emigrated to communist, athiest China. My emigration, his death were of course more sculpted by insane parents than our fundamentalist upbringing, but the two informed each other.
I’m not against imaginary friends in theory, take what you need to be happy and survive. But proselytizing it, judging, other weirdness? Is insane. The whole American Christianity thing is madness. Imaginary friends are so personal, politicizing them is….madness.
I agree with you. We raise our children Jewish by decision (my husband IS I am NOT) and this is what we decided. I would be angry if my parents decided they needed to expose my kids to a church service, just in case they decide to change later.
Why can’t you as the parent help make decisions on the belief system you want them to start with?
Wow - I go on vacation and there are these wonderfully provocative posts! We seem to have this religious issue as well - however family is not local so no problem with them. Our issue tends to be with playmates who have never met a non-christian. We are nominally Buddhists - but lacking a child-friendly sangha in our area we don’t have a community practice. Ealier in June our daughter wanted (SO BADLY) to go on a playdate w/ her friend from school. The mom said it was a church picnic - it was an old episcopal church in town. I thought it would be OK - a little exposure was cool. We were a bit suprised when the kid came home and told us of attending the service! It was kinda funny using her experience she described it as the people saying “a bunch of pledges” (like alliegence) and it was about Jesus’ “last dinner”… They even took her up to communion where she got a “bland cracker and dunked it in real wine”… I wimped out and didn’t call the mom but I thought it was out of line for a “playdate”.
Extremely well said!!! : )
We are Agnostics (ok…hubby is…I’m an athiest) and our daughter (who is nine) claims she is a Christian. I’ve tried reallly hard to get her to be more skeptical but she has, since she was very young, exhibited signs of a bible-thumping gene (strike that…of “having faith”) so we have allowed her to explore her “faith/God” feelings/thoughts while at the same time explaining that not everyone believes. I’m lucky in that my mom is not very vested in church stuff and just teaches her prayers and some light god related stuff so I don’t have to worry about indoctrination and/or having her turn against us, but letting her explore this or NOT is totally our prerogative just as it is yours or those who teach their children that Jesus was the son of a being we can’t see….because…you know…we wipe their asses, clean their messes and teach them what we think will be of value to them as they grow up. So although I do let mine explore her faith I’m with you on the “I make decisions for her all day long” so why should this be any different. We don’t need our children or other people’s permision to teach what we believe is right.
And for the record…despite the fact that I DO SEE both sides I STILL try to project my Athiest mentality on my kid…because that is what I believe is right and moral…because I’m her mom and until she is able to do so (or pay some rent) I will continue to make choices that affect her…that is my job.
Just wildly speculating here, but I’m guessing your commenter wouldn’t have the same attitude with someone taking /her/ kids to a non-Christian religious service on a regular basis.
And yeah, I never heard you say you were an atheist either. Sheesh.
That’s the same route we are going with our daughter. When she is old enough to begin exploring her own religious path she will be free to and encouraged to explore that, and until then she attends temple with me.
And that is just horrific about the minister’s wife showing you, so young, aborted fetuses. I can’t even begin to imagine how anyone would think that’s appropriate to do.
First of all I want to say how excellent it is to see some atheists coming out of the woodwork. And notice I didn’t say ‘crawl’. It’s fabulous and very encouraging because it is true that the general perception of Americans is that you’re all bible bashing fundamentalists. I know really that you’re not but it’s bloody nice to hear open discourse about atheism. We atheists don’t all have horns and gosh by golly we do have a moral code. Just not one found at the bottom of the garden.
Cheers and bravo,
Cathy
P.S. We did allow my parents to take our two to church and even scripture classes at school. The kids would come home with all those fantastical stories and my husband and I would tell them how and why those fantastical stories were just that. Not entirely sure what they will end up believing in but it is my job to inculcate them with all my knowledge and wisdom. Being a parent is, afterall, my biggest social experiment!!
Religion is always such a tough subject, that’s why people should abstain from telling others what they should be teaching their children.
I was raised, Catholic, but not the American-Catholic kind, a much much liberal kind. My maternal grandparents are Catholics, rather conservative (e.g. on grandpa’s side some belong to the Opus_dei), and raised their 7 children that way. Some got to be “more” Catholic than others.
My mom, she raised us to believe in G*d, took us to church at times, sent us to Sunday School to a Church she liked because they followed her liberal views and weren’t that strict/conservative. Above all, she taught us to question what we are told, not to believe everything we heard or read, to question and search for our own truth. I’d say she succeeded.
I never realized how different my views were compared to other Catholics, until I attended an Opus-Dei highschool during my senior year (I agreed only ’cause they had a great academic program). They tried to convince me of their creed but wouldn’t hear out what I had to say. That kind of “extremism” and “fanatism” really scared the hell out of me.
That year I thanked my mother for raising me to question and think for myself, and help me at times while I processed my thoughts and feelings reagarding issues such as gay rights, abortion, etc, even if my stand on them differed from that of the “faith”/church, for not “repressing” my views.
My children will learn the same, to love and respect others, to lend a helping hand to those who need it, and other moral and ethical values I consider “right”. It will be my perrogative as a parent, as much is it is other’s perrogative to teach their children homosexuals, divorcees, and many more go to hell, even if not everyone agrees with them.
Oh, You rock. You are so totally right in this post.
When I was a kid (like 5 years old) my parents let my jehovah’s witness grandparents take us like one afternoon a month. where, at 5 years old, I was told that the apocolypse was going to happen in October of 1975 and that my parents, unless they were “saved” were going to die a fiery death. And we (my 7 year old sister and I) would to unless we denounced our parents and became JWs. I also saw my cousin (who apparently had an extramarital affair) get disfellowshipped and shunned from the community. I saw another cousin struggle to survive in an abusive marriage but had no recourse because she was duty-bound to serve her husband and God. I saw my aunt, who married a catholic, get treated so rudely in the name of religion by her own mother I was scared that any mother could act that way to her child. And I was haunted by fire and brimstone bible stories about people who were killed and stoned for having different beliefs. And that was just a few hours with them a month.
Stand your ground. (not that i’m worried that you won’t.) But you are doing the right thing here, and it makes a whole lot of sense the way you have reasoned this out.
Very well said. I completely agree. We seem to live in a mid-western area where everyone is flocking in droves to the nearest, latest and biggest mega church out there on each and every street corner. When I explained to my daughter’s preschool teacher that we wouldn’t be attending their church service on Sunday morning to listen to the pre-school children sing songs she looked at me like I had 4 eyes. Yes, it is my choice to send her to the Christian preschool and it is also my choice not to become embroiled in this church’s highly conservative Christian values and politics that become evident in their sermons.
I want to raise critical thinkers who will make their own choices as adults. No guilt, no politics and they can leave the hell fire and damnation as well…don’t need it.
Your post came at just the right time for me. I just spent a week at my parents house, during which of course they educated me on how the “end times” are coming soon. As a (parent-pleasing) adoptee, I don’t want to crush them by admitting that I am Buddhist/agnostic. But I cannot allow them to push their religion on me or my daughter. I finally had to tell them that my daughter will be raised to be a moral critical thinker who can choose her spiritual path when she is much older.
We recently declined going on the extended-family vacation this summer to avoid the “big blow-out argument” that is becoming more inevitable…
Well said…you are correct on every point
Very well said. I wonder if the original commenter would like me to take her kid to one of my prayer meetings? My religious beliefs are a patchwork quilt of Pantheist sentiment, Hindu morality and Greek-deity-worship. Would the commenter like me to tell her repeatedly that there is no one sentient god but that we ARE God, just as everything else around us is, and that we can celebrate however we choose (so long as she celebrates by worshipping the Greek panthion, because, you know, that’s what I do) but that when you squish a bug karma will come and kick you in the but later by squishing YOU? (Okay, I don’t actually believe that, but some of the people at my prayer meetings do). And yeah, that makes me sound whacked out, but I think almost all Christian practices are equally as crazy (and the ones that aren’t are stolen from ancient pagan religions anyway). My children will be raised agnostic and educated in as many religions as they take an interest in. They can choose to follow whatever spiritual path they want when they have learned enough to make an educated dicision.
I think a lot of people from various major religions use the ‘the kid should choose’ and ‘you should show them both sides’ WAY too much without actually subscribing to it themselves.
Nice written, I can only agree with you. Your parent were doing well, when leaving you at home, when they went to the church.