One more, then moving on
Ok, I can’t help but milk this school topic for one more post. Then I will move on, I promise.
I think these posts are riling people up because they hit so close to our own good/bad experiences. A couple random thoughts I have had reading the comments: (In coherent and in no order because I am squeezing this in during naptime.)
- While many of us do consciously or subconsciously think about things like how we can help our kids at least superficially fit in, it is completely UN-PC to talk about it. Maybe it is more common among those of us who were popular or more comfortable playing the social game when we young than other people? I don’t know, but among my friends that seems to be the result of my unscientific survey.
- While a diverse school is good for a lot of reasons, I don’t personally believe it will alleviate the pressure to fit in . There may just be different groups with different fitting-in standards. If you’ve read Why are all the black kids sitting together in the cafeteria, you may remember how kids separate by race in jr. high. (If i remember correctly.) I can imagine there is some intense peer pressure to meet group norms, no matter which group you are in.
- I think most of us are approaching this from a solidly middle to upper-middle class position. As BJ said in her so-honest-I-gave-a-little-cheer comment: “I let my kids wear what they want, but we have money, and everyone knows it.” If your kid is in the top 30 percent of the socio-economic groups of his or her school, odds are clothing/lunch isn’t going to do much to cause them to be picked on unless they have some other kind of serious quirkiness going on. If we are being totally honest, I can feel pretty safe sending M to school in boy clothes or crappy t-shirts and with messy hair if I felt like it. I can’t imagine that class status is going to be much of a problem for our kids in this district. (And I will openly admit we didn’t choose the wealthiest school district because I didn’t want the pressure of keeping up with the kids whose parents buy them a new SUV when they turn 16. Our district has a decent class/SES spectrum for a suburb.)
- This comment made me laugh out loud: “remember you are the same chick who put out penis models on the curb free for the taking… so I would think it would be more likely M would be wearing skull and crossbones on her shirt the first day. “ While it is true that I like to dress the girls in funky hipster clothes, I still think they are dressed safely within the realm of acceptible for our area. M is old enough that I won’t force her to wear MY politics and cultural (progressive-feminist-lefty) preferences. When she develops her own preferences, she can be free to wear them. I do feel I have more freedom to dress them like that when they are little and have no say. For example M used to wear an “Already a Feminist” onesie and L had her infamous skull shirt in China.
- I also think a lot of parents my age (roughly 30-36?) spent our high school years in the “alternative is cool” mindset. That whole Geek Chic thing is as yuppie as it comes, so is it really that “different”? (Chicagomama touched on that in her comment too.) The fact is, Mr. A and I are pretty freaking yuppie. He is a corporate lawyer, for crying out loud. It is too much effort to fight the yuppie vortex. Our kids wear fancy European or Japanese shoes and designer coats over their thrift-store vintage Tshirts. I can’t seem to help myself. Let’s be honest, if your kids dress in mismatched funky clothes from MiniBoden or Psychobaby or GapKids, it isn’t the same as when Mr. A’s parents dressed him in dirty mismatched clothes from Kmart.
- Several people pointed out that this is unlikely to be a problem in Kindergarten and to that I say THANK GOD. I certainly hope it isn’t, because it is stressful for kids and for parents. The truth is, considering these issues comes somewhat natural to me given my own experiences in school and the example my mother set as a parent who went out of her way to make sure we were dressed and groomed appropriately (and I mean that in a good way). Looking out for M and L, even when it isn’t really necessary is just part of being their mother for me. It isn’t any big deal. Checking in with M about her lunch comfort-level is also going to save me some arguments later.
- Even if the stress for kids doesn’t start in Kindergarten, I guarantee you other parents and teachers are looking at how the kids are presented, maybe consciously or maybe not. I don’t discount the importance of those first impressions. I also bet I could make a list of the kids in M’s class who end up being popular by 5th or 6th grade by the end of the first full week of kindergarten.
Damn, L is awake, so i have to wrap this up. Sorry it is so disjointed. I have really enjoyed the conversation, though I don’t completely agree with everything in the comments. And honestly, I am not particularly stressed out about any of it.
This HAS been really fascinating.
I will be one of those moms who is over the top with the yuppie clothing because I was one of those kids who NEVER had what the other popular kids had - Esprit bags, Nikes, Cabbage Patch Kids, the cool lunch food.
I know first hand how hard school is for kids, how hard it is to fit in. Why make it harder on them if you don’t have to?
I started to make a follow up comment, but then stopped-since my thoughts are addressed more to other commenters than anything you said. But since you have circled around to the comments-I’ll jump in.
I did grow up in an upper middle class neighborhood-though very diverse with lots of immigrant families (doctors-not poor) and unusual lunches and clothing styles. I am too old for the “geek is cool” trend; ) It wasn’t. I think I benefited from living in a highly educated community with lots of SAHMs who got involved with each other’s kids. There was certainly teasing, but I’m not aware of anyone being bullied-and I should know, since I was an easy target at my previous school.
I am now raising my daughter in a very socioeconomically diverse urban neighborhood-we have families with million dollar homes and some who rent apartments. We own our home, but are at the lower end of middle class. We have conservative christians, and atheists. We have immigrants from Europe, Asia, and the Americas.
So maybe I don’t know what it is like to live in a culture of conformity. But I choose to dress my daughter in hand downs (with no designer names) and give her unusual (whole) foods because it is part of the values of sustainable living that I wish to share with her. I minimize toys. I also hope she learns to think independently and learns that social success is more about having a sense of self and acceptance/respect of others than knowing all the rules.
And I have had this discussion repeatedly with my mother, an education professional who worries about kids being “too different”. She worries that my daughter is Chinese, adopted, and has a “deformed” mother, agnostic, with a counter culure lifestyle, older unmarried parents, etc.-and that this is stacked against her. Yet, our social circle includes families of several races, adopted and biracial, many faiths, including none-people from India, South Africa, England, France, China, Italy etc. And the same sex couple across the street is expecting their first baby next month. I think s will have as much or more company in being different as I did.
While there are probably some parents for whom their child being different is more about the parent, as some suggested, that is just as likely to be true of some parents who wish their child to look like the other kids.
But I think most of us are thoughtful parents trying to impart the values that we think will be the best resource for our children to become happy successful adults.
~lmc
You know what, my kids are probably going to be either dressed in:
* The nicer hand-me-downs from my sisters (some of them are REALLY NICE European stuff)
* The nicest clothes I can afford (maybe mini Boden and the like)
because I had to wait so long for them. I’m going to milk it for all I’ve got.
But if we can’t afford it (kids and adoptions are expensive, heh), they’ll be wearing the hand-me-downs plus JC Penney stuff.
I’ll just make sure they look as good as they can, because I remember not being dressed well since my family was so poor. And I was always embarrased.
Hey — I’m bummed that psychobaby doesn’t seem to have clothes for older kids :-).
And, I asked my daughter whether anyone commented on her hair (because, frankly, it does worry me when we don’t manage to comb it, and she refuses to cut it). She said they do sometimes “How often do you comb your hair?” and that she answers “Well, a lot less often than you do” (With rolled eyes). I once tried her to let me comb her hair by saying that “the other mothers would laugh at me if she had messy hair.” She retorted back to me that I shouldn’t hang out with them if they laugh at me. (and this was when she was 5 years old).
I think that our choices work for us because my kids really don’t want to fit in. They want to be noticed. And, their environment lets them be quirky. So, having neat hair, neat clothes, wouldn’t be good enough.
I guess I took the time to comment ’cause I don’t think that we should care about this stuff — I hope that I wouldn’t have allowed my kid to not invite A to a party ’cause he was scruffy. But, recognizing that people might care, and helping your kid make their choices with awareness has to be OK, no?
I think the one worry people have is that enough conformity can end up requiring conformity, from those who can’t comply (i.e. we can’t all become shiny haired, fair skinned, skinny blondes).
Interesting… but I never really gave this topic a thought before this. Maybe b/c in our community we are in the upper income bracket and most people (read most middle to upper income white folks) send their kids to private schools so compared to most of the kids in their school my kids are dressed very well.
Though I’m letting M wear his “I love MOM” t-shirt as long as he wants…
and totally agree with you about NOT moving to the most competitive town. We are steering clear of chinese/korean majority town. Way too stressful!
Lisa,
I wonder if you will feel the same way once it is time for lbg to actually go off to school? One thing that caught my eye in your comment is that you are talking about your social circle, but kindergarten is when M is leaping out from *our* social circle to fending for herself in a much bigger pond. I never had the slightest concern about her amongst our friends and neighbors.
That being said, I am not really *concerned* now either, because she is the kind of kid who does very well with others and has more invitations for friendship than she is willing to accept. I was just writing about it because it crossed my mind last week.
Amber
Amber,
You know what I would change in a heartbeat, to help my kids’ fit in? Their TV watching habits. I always snort with derisive laughter when people worry that non-TV families are depriving their preschoolers and young school-age kids of social capital, because you don’t have to watch SpongeBob in this world to know SpongeBob — or Dora or Disney Princess or anything directed toward those age groups, really.
Plus, there are so many different sorts of TV trends that not knowing one particular strand has, thus far, not carried a social cost.
But the minute my kids came home saying that they were left out in the cafeteria because they didn’t know Gossip Girl from The Hills? We would be queuing that crap up to watch together immediately.
Oh, and you know, my socially-insecure nerdy no-friends grade-school-to-high-school self feels vaguely shut out by your first bullet point. Luckily I’m 38 years old now and can assume that you weren’t pulling a subtle Queen Bee Miss Popular move there.
Uh, ditch that apostrophe on “kids” in the first sentence there….
[Once a geek, always a geek, apparently.]
Here’s the other unspoken: RACE, RACE, RACE.
I don’t know what the nuances are for your girls, but with mine, it means I have to groom them in socially appropriate ways that aren’t necessarily my first choice. We LOVE Selina’s crazy-all-over-the-place biracial ‘fro but NO WAY is she leaving the house like that.
Being messy-hip is such a white privilege and people really don’t see it. You mention the class part and you are totally right on. Race too.
Ah yes-the social capital of television does worry me-we don’t have tv, and that is the one thing that leaves me stymied in social situations. Even my closest friends like to talk about their “shows.”
As for when lbg goes off to school-hard to say-she is already in daycare 40 hours a week, and I have become friends with the mother of her bf at daycare-note that it was her friend first.
And she has been teased about my hands, something that can’t be changed. Maybe that’s why I feel the way I do-because for me, the differences are absolutes.
But how I will feel if she comes home in tears? I still think I would be inclined to try to teach her how unimportant that stuff really is. I’ve been to my 20 year reunion, and I feel confident in saying-social success in school means little in life. But she is always welcome to make changes that make her happy. Hopefully she will learn that she is unlikely to be able to make changes that make others happy. It just doesn’t work that way.
~lmc
School SUCKED for me. Sucked HARD. And I have, and will, do whatever I think I need to do to make my kids fit in a little more, to make school a little easier for them. Maybe my horrid school experiences made me a stronger person, I don’t know. But I don’t want my kids to have to find out. So, Disney Princess backpack? Check. Pink light up princess sneakers? Check. Trendy baggy pseudo-thug wear that I hated every time I saw it? Check.
There’s something to be said for being yourself, of course. But fitting in? I don’t think that’s so bad, either, if one has the means to make the choice. I never had that chance.
This discussion has been really interesting. I very clearly remember that the kids who were deemed “attractive” by general social standards could get away with a lot - as early as KG/1st grade. “Attractiveness” seemed to transcend race, class, personality, etc. And gawd help the “ugly” kids - teasing was relentless. I’m surprised no one is talking about this in the comments.
Checking back - you know this issue does hit close to home & I think it’s impossible not to draw on one’s own experiences from back in the day. Re: my comment above - I’m actually not surprised that people aren’t talking about the “attractiveness” component to all of this social ladder stuff. It was the topic of my senior thesis - the correlation between “social success” and “attractiveness” in adolescence. This stuff starts so early - and despite our efforts to protect our kids from the shallow evaluations of others - it happens. Can’t we just stay in our bubbles at home?
It’s this “fitting in” attitude that brought us parachute pants, neon shoe laces and Jams. Do we really want to follow that lead?
http://www.AnUrbanStory.com
An interesting book relevant to this discussion: “Odd Mom Out” by Jane Porter. It’s a nice book, basically a chick-lit romance, but the subtext is a mom who has made a life out of not fitting in, and how to navigate that with a daughter who wants to fit in.
[...] been following the conversation over at American Family with interest. I was miserable in school, for the most part, even as far back as early elementary. [...]
Oh lordy… First grade starts next week.
Soleil dressed however the heck she wants. I do stop her when she mixes her dots and stripes or if I get a migraine when I glance in her direction. However, she has an inborn social gift that I don’t. I was a geek before geek was cool. Hell, I still am geek all the way.
I was shocked to find that Kindergarten in our town is rather, well, divided already. Money and not money. Sigh…
It’s hard. I feel for Mr. A.
I also agree with the attractive comment. Soleil is beautiful. (And I’m not just saying that) She has this beauty that I have seen in a few kids and I can see that helps when her personality gets a little rough…
I am not so beautiful, and when things got ugly at school some of my more defining features (buck teeth for one) were used in the insults. Along with that geek thing.
Sigh
Hmm, not a parent yet, so I have to admit as of yet I’m completely talking out my *ss here.
School was really hard for me. It was something I survived, rather than enjoyed or flourished in. Partially that was because my parents didn’t buy us the hip, trendy clothes, and we didn’t have cable, and we weren’t allowed to watch a lot of TV, and no one ever taught me how to put on makeup or do my hair just the right way. (I WAS, however, impeccably groomed and dressed, in clean clothes that were always relatively new — just not *cool*. And my family was in the top 30% of the socio-economic makeup of our town.)
But I think the main reason I didn’t fit in was mostly because I was different — I was a pretty exuberant kid and spoke my mind and sometimes said the wrong thing (still do actually) and wasn’t athletic and never got into the “mean girl” mentality you needed to have in my competitive tiny Connecticut high school.
So, I think when I have kids, I’ll follow their lead, which seems to be what you’re doing with M. I’ll certainly make sure they’re clean and their clothes are in good repair, but beyond that, I want them to make choices about how they dress, what their favorite activities are, etc. And if it turns out that they don’t fit in, and everyone thinks their favorite shirt or hobby is dumb, well that will be a lesson about life — sometimes people aren’t going to agree with you, and that’s ok.
[...] Question of the Day… August 27, 2008 Reading this post and the two before it on AmFam, I cannot help but wonder. Exactly how much impact do out social experiences at school have on us [...]
I’ve found your posts and the comments about this fascinating. I spend so much time thinking, reading, and learning from various professionals about all of the variables that impact social life in schools and elsewhere, the better to help my daughter who has been diagnosed on the autism spectrum, I had almost forgotten that not everyone has the same obsession!
Great continuing discussion!
And this is not directly related to it, but, apart from the other reasons I have to put my kids in a tiny private church school, I really “fear” the public schools because I didn’t grow up in this country and I have no idea how things work in school here — just to read your blogs and from popular culture, movies and stuff.
How could I help my son successfully navigate something that I’m completely in the dark about?
Now, Jody touched on a very interesting point — TV. My kids do watch TV, but only PBS, that’s all they know. So… when we meet and talk to other people — the funny thing that it’s mostly other adults, the pediatrician, other people who want to please my kids and talk about something that they know — I’m quick to point out “No, we don’t watch SpongeBob/Dora/ Diego, we only watch PBS” (it was funny to see the pediatrician scramble to remember some PBS characters!! ;-).